So one ballot in the box and already I wonder… How do you see Andruw Jones in the hall and not Bobby Abreu? Let’s get the obvious argument out of the way, for everyone who cares about war, they’re really not far apart at all. The easy for Jones, he has 150 home runs, 11 slugging points and 9 gold gloves on Abreu. On the flip side, Abreu has him by 600 walks, 250 steals, 200 doubles, 550 hits, 250 runs, 25 triples, 60 OBP points, 50 ops points, 80 RBIs and he batted almost 40 points higher than Jones. I know there is a lot of love for Jones’s defense but nine gold gloves trumps all of that?? I don’t see it.
Suzuki should be unanimous, Sabathia would get my vote, Beltran should already be in, as should Wagner, and I guess I wouldn’t begrudge Utley a spot but again, comparatively I don’t see his overall numbers blowing away Ian Kinsler so not sure how one goes and one doesn’t but hey whatever.
The steroid thing is beyond ridiculous at this point, Ramirez is on a pedestal with Ruth, Williams, Foxx, Mays and a small handful of other guys who have batted .300 and belted 500 home runs. Maybe he juiced but that’s not what makes you a Hall of Fame hitter. And unless you’re going to purge the hall of all cheaters and wrongdoers then this argument is extremely stale.
Bobby Abreu is just one of those guys who gets overlooked because of his lack of accolades. Very similar to Dwight Evans; has the numbers of a Hall of Famer, but not the name recognition.
Yes I think if there is ever a most-underated all-time team Abreu and Evans are sure-fire starters.
I agree, but one would think that with all the stats available, one would catch players like Abreu and Evans.
This is test ballot. It’s there until first ballot
He was a good player, but can a player who has never finished in the top 10 in MVP voting be given the greatest title of his generation, the Hall of Fame?
Well first off, I don’t necessarily think Abreu is a Hall of Fame lock type of guy. My real point I guess is that neither is Jones but if I had to choose between the two it would definitely be Abreu since as illustrated above, he clearly tops Jones all over the map. But I think this also illustrates why piling up some awards is not a barometer for a hall of famer. Go back through the first year of MVP voting, look up the top 20 finalists and as you go through every year, count up how many times you can easily make an argument that the winner should not have won and possibly should not have even come in the top five. Then throw away all the hypothetical modern so-called metrics and see how many guys could easily have gotten the attention of the voters had they been maybe more flashy or created a larger celebrity platform for themselves. Abreu was not Superstar material personality-wise but he quietly put together 9 20-20 seasons with a pair of 30-30 seasons thrown in there, was a solid if not spectacular fielder, ended up right around .300 annually and was definitely never the reason his teams didn’t go all the way. He sat around through Philadelphia’s rebuild years with a couple of guys like maybe Rolen and Burrell in his lineups and only caught the beginning of the Utley / Rollins/ Howard years. He was shipped off to New York where he gave them a few good seasons and then toiled away in California with not much around him to speak of there. Far too often the guys who get the MVP votes put up maybe some huge home run numbers and don’t bat their weight and a guy like Abreu, quietly puts together solid all around season after solid all around season and is ignored. But that’s the nature of the beast. A guy who goes out there every day and bats .300, gets on base, please solid defense, steals bases and moves himself along, scores runs and piles up some extra base hits is far more valuable to me than a guy who hits 50 bombs but we probably have to wait a week between solid performances before he runs into a good fastball. Look how many times a guy wins MVP and his team doesn’t even get into the playoffs. How valuable is that?
On the other hand, if you look at Jones, he very strongly resembles a guy like Darrell Evans with some gold gloves. Or better yet, Dale Murphy with a handful more of gold gloves. If either of those two guys had batted somewhere around .300 for their careers, they’d have been in the hall long ago. So why would we now ignore all of that for a guy who batted .254? Because of some gold gloves? Okay he was a good fielder but so were several other guys. And the guy who is a little more flashy like Jones generally takes the cake. There have been plenty of cases throughout baseball history where a guy just becomes the consensus favorite through flashiness, personality, exposure and any number of intangibles and then we are left to look back and second guess. But I think that’s why we all kind of know that subjective awards only mean so much so I don’t know how they’ve become such a barometer for Hall of Fame qualifications. Murphy was an MVP and not only did he win five gold gloves but he played all three outfield positions after playing catcher and first base. He landed a pair of homers shy of 400, right around dead even with Jones everywhere else and batted 11 points higher. So how can we think a guy who never actually won an MVP, batted lower than this guy and otherwise replicates his career, beyond a handful of gold gloves is a hall of famer? Not to mention the domestic violence thing. People make mistakes and move on and they should be entitled to but somehow I don’t see how a bunch of voters can beat the hell out of some guys who took peds, which hurt no one else physically by the way, and ignore a guy man-handling his wife. I guess I’m no expert on moral ethics but that seems far worse to me. And as for the argument that he didn’t cheat the game, technically, there are ethics clauses in MLB rules so by that standard, yes he did. He blatantly screwed the game out of it’s moral value from the standpoint that his popularity represented a face of the game and that kind of behavior doesn’t represent it very well.
Well, calm down. There are many cases where a majority vote leads to unsatisfactory results. For example, I can’t even accept that Beltran is on this list. But if it’s decided by the votes of several hundred experts, we have no choice but to accept it.
Oh I’m calm, nothing personal brother. But I think you kind of help me make the point.
“But if it’s decided by the votes of several hundred experts, we have no choice but to accept it.”
What the hell makes someone an “expert” in opinions? Getting a job as a talking head? Watching baseball games? We all watch baseball games.
I may not work for some daily herald or worse, some piece of crap sports blog on a computer where I spout off the same things all my peers spout off because we don’t have an original thought between us but I certainly have watched more than enough baseball in my time to know the difference between who’s good and who’s not. And all without the help of fictitious, hypothetical “statistics”. Like I don’t need “war” to tell me who somebody “might” be better than. And I can’t rely on things like total zone defensive whatever to tell me what somebody “should” be able to do. How can you sit on a sideline, wishing you were as good as the people on the field and make crap-headed decisions about what someone’s fielding range should be? (Again, not you personally but, these so-called experts).
Not sure why you don’t like Beltran but as far as the choices for Hall of Fame induction, this guy blows away most of the list. 2700 hits, 400 home runs, 300 steels, almost 600 doubles, and he was one hell of a centerfielder. .279 avg isn’t glorious but it’s also not horrible, especially combined with all the other numbers he put up. But he banged on some trash cans so he’s going to get punished as well. He may be just shy of traditional benchmarks across the board but in a time when most people are, and the supposed “experts” are looking for people to get behind, he’s one of the closest things to it on the list.
Sign stealing has been part of the game since day one. Obviously the Astros were a little more elaborate in their approach but the result is no different than a guy standing on second base, deciphering the catcher signs and relaying them to the dugout. That’s happened for decades upon decades and no one was ever kept out of the Hall of Fame for it or suspended indefinitely.
Once more, this is never personal between fans and some people let it get that way but, for those of us who are passionate fans and have watched this game our entire lives, accepting nonsense is not part of the plan. And this is just where we come to vent.
At the very least, they’ll give Jones a better rating than someone who calls his defense “some gold gloves and good fielder.”
If the best defensive center fielder since Mays hit more home runs than Stanton, I don’t need to analyze too closely and think he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
I see your view but you also said you don’t understand Beltran being on the list. He was an excellent defender, hit more home runs than Jones and beyond that blows him away and every other statistic.
400 home runs used to be pretty much a lock if you piled up any other meaningful stats. Konerko and Delgado not only have more home runs but more hits, doubles, higher averages etc and we’re basically afterthoughts in Hall of Fame voting. Torii Hunter may only have 350 homers but he has almost 500 doubles, nine gold gloves and again beats Jones all over the map. So I guess my point would be not so much, don’t elect Jones but how the hell do all these other guys fall so short in comparison? There is something drastically wrong with that system.
Believe me, though I’m no retired pro ball player, I played center field for years and I played it as hard as I could. I learned by watching footage of the greats and blew out my knees playing that hard. Backing up the right shielder, the left fielder, the two middle infielders and I played every game with the belief that there wasn’t a ball I wasn’t getting to. I love the value of great fielding as much as anyone and it was right up there with hitting and stealing bases as far as I was concerned, as my favorite things to do on a diamond. But if we’re going to look at guys with 400 plus home runs, .280 averages, at least 400 doubles and at least 2,000 hits, I can’t see how a guy who falls short of all of that except for 400 homers and great defense goes in while so many other guys who accomplished all of that do not.
I think Jones’ defense should be treated more like Ozzie Smith’s, not Torii Hunter’s or Greffey Jr’s.
The fact that he was the best defender of all time at a key position should make any issues with his hitting stats go away.
Of course, the reason I hate Beltran is because of the trash can. Because of him, even when I see a player like Acuna Jr. whose K% changed dramatically in just one year and all his batting stats improved, I always suspect he cheated first.
Personally, when it comes to Hall of Famers, I prefer players with unparalleled skills over players who have consistently achieved 20-20.
When I explain about Hall of Fame players 50 years from now, I don’t want to give a one-hour presentation to explain how great Abreu was. I think Hall of Fame players are the ones whose greatness is immediately obvious to everyone.
However, everyone has their own values, and your opinion has been formed through long experience, so I respect it.
Mostly I think we look at things the same way. But I can tell you I spent a lot of years wondering about guys cheating and how I felt about it. Long before we heard of trash can banging or anyone cared about steroids. When I first saw Jose Canseco at Fenway Park in the ’80s, there were people yelling steroids and laughing just because it was so obvious. I had a minor league baseball card of him and he looked like he was probably about 70 lb lighter only a couple of seasons before he got to the majors. McGwire was a beast when he showed up on the scene and nowhere near what he looked like in St Louis when he was about the size of a small mountain. But there were so many guys that started to look like that in pretty short order and everyone was just astounded by the power displays (the 98 Home run race was one of the greatest eras in baseball, gave the writers something to follow and rave about only for them to now take a crap on the same guys and pretend they are up in arms). And not every guy could provide it. That was part of why it wasn’t such a big deal. Before there were people telling us math equations to judge output, we could all see who was really good and who wasn’t. Felix Jose was a pretty good sized dude when he came up for the Athletics but he couldn’t hit his own ass with the toilet seat.
Beyond that, there have been guys who took amphetamines, snorted coke (Tim Raines nickname Rock was not because he was solid and he’s in the Hall of Fame), scuffed balls, rubbed any number of things on balls, corked bats and on and on. Stealing signs has been part of the game since long before I was alive. So now, when I’m coaching Little League kids, I have given those things a lot of thought over time. Every time I see a kid trying to do the hidden ball trick or trying to “frame” a pitch, the reality hits me that baseball has never been a clean game. Banging trash cans is simply the evolution of a runner standing on second and memorizing signs to later relay them to batters. We get worked up because we’d love to believe that to baseball players facing off is the epitome of gladiators doing battle in the arena. One-on-one, you against me, let’s see who gets the best of who from purely the standpoint of athleticism and talent. But that’s not baseball. No one ever calls a pitcher a cheater because he watches film. But he watches that film to pick up nuances and tendencies based on the batter’s history. He’s not facing that guy one on one from a clean slate, he’s going up there armed with knowledge that certain guys, standing a certain way will, 95% of the time go after a specific pitch. He’s basically playing the odds, just like Vegas. Where are things more impure than Vegas? I’m not saying it’s cheating but what I’m saying is that as long as there has been baseball, there have been players trying to get one over one way or another. But in this day and age, everyone seems to think they are a Puritan and that there is some glory to be gained by catching people doing something shady. What we really are doing is making fools of ourselves because, in reality, none of us are perfect or ever will be. When we have a Hall of Fame full of guys who have used drugs, displayed racism and employed any other tactics, not pure to the game, banging on trash cans kind of pales in comparison for me. And my real thought on sign stealing of any kind is that, I can tell you all day long what’s coming but it’s not automatic you’re going to hit it. And even if you do, there’s no guarantee you’re going to hit it well or well enough to get a base hit. Several guys on that Houston team have produced pretty good careers with or without the trash cans. And it’s not like Houston went 162 and 0 because they employed such a foolproof plot to foil the entire Major League. But, as you said, everyone’s going to have their opinion. That’s just how I’ve come to break it down in my time. By that same token though, holding guys accountable for shady behavior would definitely preclude a guy like Jones. I can’t think of too many things done to get a leg up in baseball that are worse than manhandling a woman.
As far as the defense, like I said, I value defense greatly but at the same time, from your standpoint of Hall of Famers being obvious, which I wholeheartedly agree with, Jones falls on the other side of that line to me. I feel that a kid looking at a list of the Hall of Fame center fielders would wonder why most of his numbers ended up pretty pedestrian across the board except for the 400 home runs. I saw the guy play and he was a great defender. I also saw Kenny Lofton play and he was just as good in my eyes. He also stole 600 bags and rapped 2400 hits. He didn’t, however even get to 400 doubles but he did have 116 triples. And that guy is kind of borderline to me. Which brings me to Ozzie Smith. I don’t quite think Ozzie Smith belonged in the Hall of Fame. Yes he was a great defensive player. But he also barely hit 400 doubles in 11,000 plate appearances. And it wasn’t because he used his speed and athleticism turning them into triples since he only ended up with 69 of those. If you’re going to be a Hall of Famer with 11,000 plate appearances and only hit 28 home runs, I’d like to see at least 500 doubles and 500 steals for a guy with that kind of speed and athleticism. He really wasn’t much of a hitter at all. About average and maybe a little below when it matters most.
I think the reason I would have trouble saying either of those guys is a Hall of Famer without a doubt in the scenario that a Hall of Famer should be obvious is that, without the subjectively great defense (because let’s face it, a pretty good amount of the plays any guy makes are fundamental to the point that we teach little Leaguers these are easy outs and catches that should be made by anyone playing the position), there is still too much to explain. Without the gold gloves, Jones offensively is not much more than Dave Kingman. Omar Vizquel has a much better fielding percentage than Ozzie Smith but he was not likable and so no one has made concessions for his otherwise average career. So, like I said, I value defense greatly but I also think a large part of defense should be pretty fundamental and if you can’t do it, you probably don’t belong in the major leagues to begin with or at least not at that position. I could watch footage of an athletic savant like Bo Jackson running up and down the outfield walls all day long but if the rest of his game doesn’t quite match up in the end or even look remotely comparable to his historical peers, I feel like there’s too much explaining to do for him to be in the hall. And then if he throws his wife down the stairs, I can’t see how that’s ignorable when peds and trash can banging are not.
I respect that you like Jones and don’t like the trash cans and I get why you would feel that way. Obviously there are many who agree with you on those things. And I appreciate that you respect my views. That’s what makes this such a great forum at times.
Just because there have been worse people in the past doesn’t mean I can ignore the bad people out there now.
My favorite team and player lost to the Astros in 2017, and it’s still fresh in my memory, so I may be severely biased.
When I started watching baseball, Jones was late in his career, so I knew very little about what he did with woman until you told me. If I had known Jones since he was younger, I think I would have disliked him.
Well I know that sucks. I like the Dodgers too. I actually like several teams as I just live baseball and family influences from around the country turned me on to different teams growing up. Ohio relatives made me a Reds fan very young, same with the Mets and Queens relatives. Being a New Englander I had plenty of Sox family, and several older family members were Dodgers and Braves fans since they were in Brooklyn and Boston way back.
86 was a great and crappy Series since I like both teams and 90 is the last time the Reds delivered.
Anyway, the losses suck but at least ‘Dem Bums have grabbed a couple of recent ones and have been pretty relevant for a long time now.
I don’t think they lost the ’17 series because of trash cans though. I think they lost because Puig, Bellinger, Turner, Seager and Taylor all went to sleep at the same time. They got mostly no offensive production from the guys who had delivered the most prior to the series and still were able to go seven games. Houston didn’t put on a great offensive display either for a team that supposedly knew everything that was coming. George Springer happened to catch fire and things fell for Houston in game seven. I know it was frustrating but remember, the trash cans didn’t stop the Dodgers from hitting that series.
And, again, sign stealing was done long long long before this. Guys on base, someone watching from the bleachers, clubhouse TV’s catching the live feed from center field. This was just the one that was blown out of proportion to make an example. I wanted LA in that series too but if you let people convince you that teams lose entire series over these types of things you’ll spend forever being paranoid about the game. You can tell guys all day what’s coming and what’s not but the ball still gets thrown and the batter still has the same chance to read it. No one forces him to do anything.
And sorry about the Jones news. I think anyone sincere deserves the chance at redemption but the voters haven’t given that benefit to anyone else so why now? Roger Clemens, among others, never failed a test and his use of PEDs was never proven concrete, beyond a shadow of a doubt yet, they kept him out and this is one of the top 5 pitchers in history.
I agree with nearly everything. Any player that was not suspended for using roids, should get elected. Palmero, AROD etc should still be considered after getting suspended. The minute Ortiz was elected (as he should be) all the other players who didn’t fail a test, should be allowed.
I also think Utley is a difficult player to put in. I do agree Abreu should be voted, but consider Jones a much more deserving player. The gold gloves are not a side note. He was one of the greatest OF ever.
Great post. Hopefully Jones, Abreu , Manny etc eventually get the call!!
I don’t necessarily think gold gloves are a side note, I just think they are not grounds for the Hall by themselves. He was a great defensive player but so were several other guys. Among those guys are Griffey Jr, Mays, Mantle, Snider, Speaker and Cobb. The last 3 played before gold gloves existed and in Snider’s case, only a handful of seasons at the end of his career when gold gloves were new and he was old. These are the greatest center fielders ever and outside of his gold gloves and 400 homers, make Jones look like Tony Armas. Kenny Lofton was an excellent center fielder. He’s been ignored despite several other comparable and better stats than Jones. Abreu, on the other hand, stacks up pretty well all the way around compared to right fielders. He wasn’t the best ever or even close but his all around game was far more complete than Jones. I also can’t see a guy batting just over .250 or not even reaching 2000 hits as a real Hall of Famer.
I think a lot of concessions have been made in lieu of having great , obvious players to vote for and I think that’s why certain guys become the sudden flavor of the day and a bandwagon effect happens. I can’t recall anyone thinking this guy was a Halloween of Famer when he finished his career. And for the argument that we’ve somehow “evolved” statistically since then, we haven’t. We’ve just invented several supposed metrics, many of which are subjective or hypothetical, and applied them to justify a means to an end. But no metric spins .254 avg and 1900 hits into a hall of famer I don’t think.
Just my opinion.
Finally, Hall of Time once again!
This one is going to be very interesting. Too many candidates will be up for election. That could either be good or bad. Some pretty good candidates might fall off because of the too many candidates on the ballot. I would like to compare some candidates here.
I would like to begin with CC Sabathia, Mike Mussina and Felix Hernandez. Of course, Mike Mussina is a hall of famer, but it took him several years to be there, like 6 years if I’m not mistaken.
CC Sabathia 251 Wins, 3,093 Ks, 3.74 ERA, 62.3 WAR Cy Young
Mike Mussina 270 Wins, 2,813 Ks, 3.68 ERA, 82.2 WAR (HOF) No Cy Young
Felix Hernandez 169 Wins, 2,524 Ks, 3.42 ERA, 49.7 WAR Cy Young
Mike Mussina clearly was the better pitcher here and it took him about 6 years to make the hall of fame. Why should CC be first ballot? You be my guest.
I would also like to compare Chase Utley, Dustin Pedroia and Ian Kinsler, none of these are hall of famers so far, but would like to compare them.
Chase Utley .275 avg., 1,885 hits, 259 HRs, 64.5 WAR, 6 All Stars, no gold gloves, no MVPs
Dustin Pedroia .299 avg., 1,805 hits, 140 HRs, 51.9 WAR, 4 ALL Stars, 4 gold gloves, 1 MVP, ROY
Ian Kinsler .269 avg., 1,999 hits, 257 HRs, 54.1 WAR, 4 All Stars, 2 Gold gloves, No MVP
Why this comparison? Because a lot of people out there keep saying that Utley was the better second baseman of the three here above. Clearly, we can see that’s not the case. I’m not saying the other two are or should be hall of famers, but if Utley receives over a 28% of the vote for the hall of fame, then Pedroia and Kinsler should be near that as well.
One more comparison and the last one. I would like to compare Russell Martin with Brian McCann.
Russell Martin .248 avg., 191 HRs, 38.9 WAR, 4 All Star Games, 1 Gold Glove, 1 silver slugger, 0 MVPs
Brian McCann .262 avg., 282 HRs, 32 WAR, 7 All Stars, 6 Silver Sluggers, 0 gold gloves, o MVPs
Why that last comparison? I know neither are hall of famers or will be, but….heard a lot of people saying that Russell Martin was better than McCann…not true.
I meant hall of fame at the beginning of the post.
Excuse my grammar mistakes on the post above.
Yeah I definitely don’t see the Utley over Kinsler thing. Pretty neck and neck right down the line. Pedroia was pretty awesome and I know there will be plenty of sentiment against his longevity. However, if you want to hold war against a candidate, where does it end? The real war leaders are all in the 90s and well over 100 so making concessions for guys at 70 as though that’s amazing puts people like Scott Rolen in there. How is his 70 good enough but Lou Whitaker at 75 is not? Even being finished for all intents and purposes by 33 years old, Pedroia has a higher war than Hall of Fame second baseman. I have no use for war but just making your argument for you. War doesn’t tell you who the best are. For instance, Ted Williams has a lower war than several other guys all because he missed roughly six combined years between real wars and injuries. Anyone in their right mind would take him over most of the people ahead of him on the war list.
In reality, a guy should be judged on what he did in the time he did have not how much time he didn’t have. Not that we should be inducting people who have a great three or four years and do nothing else ever but for a guy to hit.299 with 1800 hits and win championships, you should just consider what he did in the time he did it.
Utley will probably get more consideration than Kinsler and Pedroia because his peak was better. (Best seven seasons: 49.3, compared to 38.1 and 41.0, respectively). Utley’s JAWS score puts him between Ryne Sandberg and Lou Whitaker (who should be in the Hall), and above guys like Alomar and Biggio. Pedroia and Kinsler’s scores put them close to guys like Kent and Altuve (right now), and they don’t have the counting stats those guys do so they might be overlooked. Second base is underrepresented in the hall right now, unfortunately, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
The problem is that Utley doesn’t have the counting stats either, only 1,885 career hits. In fact Kinsler had more hits than Utley (1,999 career hits) Pedroia had over 1,800 hits as well, same as Utley.
Sad but the voting body gets younger so you get what we’re getting. They’ll go so far to justify wars and zones and jaws and hypotheticals that the real accomplishments are ignored. Voting for a guy who’s big offensive contribution is 430 home runs and then so-so because he has 10 gold gloves is ridiculous. The guy batted garbage, hung on too long and threw his wife down the stairs. That’s a hall of fame resume??? Get real.
Agreed with you 100%
Really I see Utley and Kinsler have obviously higher totals than Pedroia but clearly due to his unfortunate knee circumstance. I can actually get behind Pedroia because the guy just screamed Hall of famer pretty much his whole career until the injury wiped them out. The other two guys piled up some numbers but if they were in there they would be among the very lower echelon of Hall of Fame second baseman. Like Joe Gordon, Lazzeri and Evers. Three guys I’m not even sure belong in there in the first place. And then there are guys beyond that like Bid McPhee who probably don’t either. Every other second baseman in there had at least 2000 hits and many of them batted .300 or close to it. Even Lazzeri batted over .290. no we’re going to watch guys go in there who didn’t even get to 2000 hits or bat at least .280? Getting a little silly I think.
Sabathia: Cy Young, 3,000 strikeouts and a World Series champion.
That’s why he’s a first ballot guy.
Yeah, but his ERA is a little high. If I compare CC with Mike Mussina here is because Mussina was better than him and it took Mussina about 6 years to make it. So, to my point, CC will probably make it, but it’s going to take him a couple of years for it.
If I had a vote it’s Manny, Suzuki, Sabathia, Abreu, Wagner, Rodriguez, Beltran, K-Rod, Pedroia and Petite. I don’t care about wars and jaws and hypotheticals, these are the guys who did what needed to happen and produced more than admirably in the time they had. Pedey might not have high numbers all over the place but blowing out a knee wasn’t his choice. What he did in the time he played was more than great.
Agreed!
As a Yankees fan, I must always back my ex-players here. My ten votes are:
Alex Rodriguez Ichiro Suzuki C.C. Sabathia Curtis Granderson Bobby Abreu
David Wright Billy Wagner Troy Tulowitzki Andrew Jones Andy Pettitte.
Not bad Vic but if you’re going Arid then the juice doesn’t bother you, in which case, how do you leave out Manny?
Tulo had 7 solid seasons in Colorado and one decent one in Toronto. You’re voting for him because he played 5 games with the Pinstripes? As far as infielders go, he doesn’t touch Pedroia, Utley or Kinsler and you leave them out. Over 5 Yankee games? Just wondering..
I already said that I’m a Yankees fan. A Rod was a Yankee. Manny Ramirez was not. I didn’t like him playing for the Red Sox or Dodgers.
I like Utley, but don’t care about Pedroia or Kinsler. I miss the days when you can put 15 names instead of 10.
So if you were a Royals fan you would just put Bob Hamlin, Danny Jackson and Buddy Biancalana in there just because they were Royals?
I don’t have a vote, but if I did, I would vote for Bobby Abreu, Carlos Beltran, Mark Buehrle, Andruw Jones, Andy Pettitte, Alex Rodriguez, CC Sabathia, Ichiro Suzuki, Chase Utley, and Billy Wagner.
CC Sabathia’s case was pretty much or very similar to Andy Pettitte and Andy doesn’t seem to be getting more support. Sabathia had a Cy Young and 3,000 k’s and one world champion. But….Pettitte was a five-time champion, and his case is not moving forward.
Pettitte’s overall body of work was not bad but he falls short of guys like Frank Tanana, Jerry Koosman, Chuck Finley and several others. Pettitte’s ERA is 756th all time which kind of screams mediocrity to begin with. He didn’t even get to 3500 strikeouts and the guy threw four shutouts in his entire career. The biggest reason he’s made at this long is probably that he’s one of the better options in the last several years in an age where hands down, lights out dominant pictures are fading from existence. Sabathia is 18th all time in strikeouts and we’re not going to see too many guys hitting big victory numbers or strike out numbers for a long time because the focus has become for guys to throw as hard as they can until they blow their arm out which is making it difficult for anyone to pitch more than five innings so they’re not going to rack up victories too often since many times games are won in the later innings after the guy has already left the mound. So then we have guys like Felix Hernandez who win the Cy Young award with 12 or 13 victories. Granted the rest of his numbers that you were good but 10 years before that he never would have won that award because too many guys pitched deeper into games and want a lot more while still hammering out all the other numbers. That’s because guys used to know how to pitch and didn’t rely on velocity velocity velocity. The game is going backwards to a caveman mentality. I have bigger muscles than you so I can punch harder me win fight. Sure, until Bruce Lee comes along and kicks your ass at 170 lb with finesse. On top of all of that, Pettitte admitted to ped use so the tight pants, cancel culture voting body besides his apologies and admissions are not good enough because they can’t strike out Mario Mendoza. There’s your difference in a nutshell.
**He didn’t get to 2500 Ks it should say
This should never have been this difficult. Hall of famers are pretty easy to spot, they are the guys who set or break the standard in their respective roles. Which means your real Hall of famers on this ballot are Manny, Arod, Wagner, Suzuki and based on hitting the 3,000 strikeout plateau, Sabathia. Although Sabathia’s ERA is the highest of anyone with 3,000 strikeouts ever. At 3.74 he is a good chunk higher considering no one ever had 3,000 strikeouts and a 3.50 ERA. That should leave Beltran, Abreu and K-Rod as the arguables. Everyone else is basically a concession in lieu of PEDs and trashcan banging so we’re crapping up the hall with silly excuses like 70 wars and several gold gloves. What the hell is that?
Agree completely. There have always been guys that are so much close and they hang on for a little while and maybe finally get in which is fine because hey, who else is going to go if they’re just aren’t enough top of the list superstars around? Trout looked like he was going to be a shoe in from day one but he sure is making it difficult to keep thinking that way. Is this guy ever going to be healthy again? But I think it’s Arod, Ramirez, Wagner and Suzuki for sure. And CCs higher era is pushing it but I always liked the 3,000 strikeout barometer myself. Guys like Utley are troublesome for me because he had a better than average career but when I think about true Hall of Famers he doesn’t quite make it.
This makes perfect sense. And 3,000 strikeouts is a pretty impressive number. Yeah the ERA was a little higher than everyone else in the club but not too many guys strike out 3,000. And probably a lot less will now because they only pitch a thousand miles an hour for 5 minutes a game and leave.
I can’t understand how somebody would vote for Arod and not Manny. If the peds don’t bother you then how are they possibly not both locks? If you’re trying to differentiate ped use, Arod tested positive for actual anabolic steroids while Ramirez tested for estrogen. THE GUY TESTED POSITIVE FOR BREAST ENHANCEMENT!!! I’m very aware they are considered to be a cover-up after steroid use but one guy actually tested positive for steroids and the other guy tested positive for trying to grow a pair of boobs. How do you vote for one and not the other?
I can get the rationale. Ramirez has the statistics of a Hall of Famer, but Rodriguez is statistically one of the 10-15 greatest baseball players ever. If A-Rod stats were decreased by 20-30%, he would still be a Hall of Famer, and I don’t think you can make that same argument about Manny. Manny also failed two drug tests, so people are not going to be as charitable when it comes to his candidacy.
Likewise I can see that rationale however, no matter how you slice reduction of statistics, Manny still outbatted Arod, out slugged him, got on base at a higher clip and therefore bests him in OPS. Arod I had 2500 more plate of appearances than Manny yet only beat him by 140 home runs and pretty similar in RBIs. So while he may have racked up 600 more hits and 300 more steals than Manny, he did it in 2500 more plate appearances and still ends up behind or very close to manny. Doubles for instance, they are one apart. But the hands down stat Manny posted that makes him pretty automatic no matter what is this list: Ruth, Foxx, Ott, Williams, Mays, Aaron, Thomas, Manny and Cabrera. Only nine guys ever to hit 500 home runs and bat over .300 for a career. All in the hall except Cabrera who very likely will be pretty soon.
Personally I don’t care about the PEDS because I’m not jaded enough to believe there weren’t way more guys doing it than we ever found out or ever will find out. And if PEDS were the answer to greatness then why didn’t half the league post the same stats these guys posted? We all know what peds really do to the body so we should all be just as aware that they do not create the greatest players of all time. Strength is only strength and if you do not have the “great responsibility to handle great power” then I guess you are Gabe Kapler, Greg Luzinski or any number of guys who could punch out a horse by somehow did not become Hall of Famers because they were super strong.
Every generation has had it’s downfalls and it’s share of guys trying to get one over. Whatever your era did not have was a bunch of bandwagon jumping, holier than thou, mindless internet riders with their own platforms trying to be the next great sage.
Voting for Utley and not for Pedroia or Kinsler is a joke. The three of them look pretty much the same way. They are on the same level. Dustin Pedroia is the one with more accolades from the theee of them and the best batting average as well.
It’s a shame Jeff Kent was overlooked
Exactly
Kent was a no-brainer. Voting body is a circus act.
It’s a shame that Lou Whitaker was also overlooked
True
Whitaker too. He had a hell of a career but I think he was more a victim of the era where voters still looked for standout Hall of Fame numbers. He didn’t get to 2500 hits, 400 or even 300 homers or even 250 as a second baseman and we used to look past avgs under .280 when those other things were also missing.
But I think he’s got one of those really solid all-around bodies of work that looks even better now. Now we’re talking about Utley and Kinsler when Sweet Lou was better than both of them.
I don’t know how Whitaker and Kent didn’t get in.
Because the voting body likes to scoff and chuckle over fans who know what they’re watching. These clowns need ridiculous made up crap like jaws and war to tell them who the hypothetical hall guys are now. And the longer it goes on, the more people don’t want to seem foolish for ignoring it so they jump on board and now we’ll go on having a Hall of Who the Hell are these Guys???
Since when was Utley better than Pedroia?
Since never. Utley played longer because Pedroia blew out the knee. Still batted .299 with only 80 less hits than Utley in less at bats. Pretty close everywhere else and superior defender to Utley and Kinsler. Utley and Kinsler are pretty similar guys and Utley just happens to have the something factor that attracted some talking heads and the following has rolled from there. You can’t look at actual stats and say Utley was a Hall of Famer and Kinsler wasn’t without holding in a chuckle. Where did Utley blow away Kinsler? A few more “wins above hypothetical mythical characters”? They’ll say Pedroia didn’t have enough longevity. Maybe not but bating .300 with 1800 hits, 4 gold gloves, ROY, MVP and multiple championships in less time than with guy, he already looks better than the other 2 in reality. Just a really sad system.
Agreed 100 %
3.74 career ERA doesn’t scream hall of fame to me. At least, not first ballot.
You have to look at CC for what he did do. Besides Verlander, Scherzer, Greinke and Kershaw, we probably are not going to see another really obvious Hall of Fame starting pitcher anytime soon. Maybe some Old-Timers will get in through the committees but beyond that, with guys only pitching four innings now if they are lucky, who’s going to rack up those kind of stats? The last four guys to retire with 100 complete games are probably Clemens, Maddux, Johnson and Eckersley. Nowadays, if a guy pictures to complete games in a season he is probably damn well going to be the league leader that year. Which also means, after the guys I mentioned, you’re not going to see somebody strike out 3,000 batters anytime soon either. 3.74 would be, by far, the highest of anyone in the 3000 Club, and a good deal higher than the average Hall of Fame pitcher as well but, his last several seasons after age 32 are responsible for the climb. So in essence, he’s kind of the jumping off point or segue between the old workhorse and the modern, babied starter. Which makes him relatively historical in and of itself. Until recently, nobody strikes out 3000 guys and doesn’t get in. Clemens and Schilling are exceptions who obviously belong in the hall and have so far been screwed. So while I think the era is a little high, I also think a 19-year career and 3,000 strikeouts is pretty worth memorializing.
I think he will make the hall of fame, but it shouldn’t be first ballot. Yeah, I get, and I know the whole pitcher Like I said before Mike Mussina was better than CC and it took him about 5 to 6 years to make it in. I think that the fact that he was a Yankee pitcher and there are too many voters who represent New York here will support CC. In fact, Sabathia matches Andy Pettitte on almost every category. Andy Pettitte was a 5-time world champion, and even though he never won a Cy Young his playoff performance as a pitcher was far better than CC’s. If I compare CC with Felix, The King for me was better. The difference between those two? CC pitched many years for the Yankees, while Felix pitched for Seattle. That’s why CC got most of his wins. Just compare the ERA and their peak years and you’ll see what I’m talking about. But yeah, he will make the hall of fame, just don’t think he’s worth first ballot.
I think Sabathia should go. 3000 Ks is pretty awesome and I don’t think it matters where he got his wins. Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine got most of their wins in Atlanta but you don’t get wins because you suck. Some maybe but not 200+.
And I don’t get the 1st ballot, 2bd ballot, 10th ballot thing. If a guy is a Hall of Famer he’s a Hall of Famer. His career is over so it’s not like he does anything different between 5 and 15 years after retirement.
Compare the ERA of CC with Maddux ERA or Glavine. CC Sabathia could pitch 6 inmings and could allow 4 earned runs, but the Yankees score 5 or even 6 runs. They will win due to the great hitting tesm they were. Can we say the same thing about Felix Hernandez? His ERA was better than the ome from Sabathia, he couldnt win that many games because his team was not a good hitting team. Get my point now?
Well I got your point all along. All I’m saying is we can’t hold wins against guys because of who they played for. How many wins do you want the discount Mussina, Clemens, Wells, Pettitte and any other pinstriper because they played for loaded Yankees teams? Sabathia actually had pretty good eras until age 32 or 33 and then he started giving up four or five runs a game and if you look at Hernandez, he only had three full seasons with a sub 3.00 ERA. He was also done by 33 years old so we’ll never know what he would have done in those same years after that age that Sabathia was actually pitching. Hernandez took the covid year off after signing with Atlanta so he never even played there and then he caught on with Baltimore the next year and had about an 8.00 ERA through spring training and couldn’t even make the club. So most likely, he would have sucked for the rest of his thirties since he couldn’t even get past 33. So they were pretty even type guys through the age 33 seasons but Sabathia was able to stick around another several years, pile up some winds and at least get to 3,000 strikeouts. If Hernandez was able to make it to 3,000 strikeouts we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation and they’d be neck and neck for the Hall no matter how many games Hernandez didn’t win.
Felix had 5 seasons of an ERA of 3.06 or better including two era titles of 2.14 and 2.27. Sabathia never did that good on the ERA category not like Felix. Of course, he will make the hall of fame mostly due to the 3,000 ks. I feel Felix should have won at least two cy young awards. I think we both had our points and it was a good analysis. See? At least we are analyzing and debating friendly and peacefully, that’s what voters should do, this type of analysis.
Too many false martyrs and followers. Obviously there are still some writers who discern between what’s important and what’s not but way too many jumping on the phony morals bandwagons and relying on half-tales like wars and jaws.
Agreed.
I think that there needs to be a fan committee. Players who are obviously HOF caliber need more opportunities and the fan voice needs to be heard! My first HOF ballot would be this class! Without these men along with prob 100 more the HOF just don’t make sense, AKA Harold Baines!!
Dale Murphy
Don Mattingly
Roger Maris
Curt Schillings
Pete Rose
Maury Wills
Lou Whittaker
Curt Flood
Ken Boyer
Darrell Evans
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Manny Rameriez
Mark McGwire
Dave Parker
Steve Garvey
Right on Nick. Never been a hypothetical metrics guy and I’m never going to be. These are a great representation of guys who built the game or continued to make it the greatest game in the world. I would add Luis Tiant and Dwight Evans and then I think it would be a really good start for correcting what ails the Hall.
And Jeff Kent
Agreed! After all we watch the games, we go to the parks, we buy their jerseys and buy baseball cards too. You’re right!
Actually thought of a few more
Allie McReynolds
Johnny Sain
Alvin Dark
Don Larson
Harvey Kuenn
Carmelo Pascual
Elston Howard
Curt Flood
Cletus Boyer
Bill White
Manny Mota
Mickey Lolich
Wilbur Wood
Dennis McLain
Craig Nettles
Sparky Lyle
Andy Messersmith
Bobby Bonds
Vida Blue
Dave Concepcion
George Foster
Greg Luzinski
Jose Cruz
Bob Boone
Ken Griffey Sr
Bill Madlock
Keith Hernandez
Fred Lynn
Ron Guidry
Willie Randolph
Dennis Martinez
Jack Clark
Lance Parrish
Pedro Guerrero
Willie Wilson
Rick Sutcliffe
Kirk Gibson
Jeff Reardon
Mike Scott
Fernando V
Dave Stewart
Brett Saberhagan
John Franco
Vince Coleman
Joe Carter
Andres Galarraga
Will Clark
Dave Cone
Mark Grace
Jim Abbott
Marquis Grissom
Omar Vizquel
John Orleud
Gary Sheffield
Kenny Loftin
Andy Pettitte
Is Allie McReynolds the love child of Allie Reynolds and Kevin McReynolds?
Thanks for proving the point of why fans are not allowed to vote… now where’s my other sock?
I don’t think his idea is bad Curt. There are definitely some guys that should be in and some knowledgeable fans that know it but, you’re right they can’t just have the entire fan base going crazy or everybody’s favorite players would be in the Hall.
I’ve always thought that Bill Madlock should’ve been in the Hall of fame. What a great hitter he was!
Kenny Lofton should.be in the hall of fame. I mean if Tim Raines is in then Lofton should be in too.
I would go El Tiante, Cobra, John for sure. I know people have a big war problem with Garvey but he was a star for a long time in his day and so was Allen. There was a time when I wouldn’t think Boyer but with things being the way they are today, a guy with a pretty good all-around game like that probably deserves to be there. Not all that dissimilar to Scott Rolen so I wouldn’t have a problem seeing any of these guys in there.
Carlos Delgado should be very high on your list. 27 more home runs and this guy would have been a lock. Better fielding percentage than about 8 or 10 Hall of Fame first baseman, 280 average, 483 doubles and probably would have made a lot more all-star teams if he spent his career as a Met or even a Yankee or Red Sox.
Yeah I can definitely think of a lot of fans who should not vote for Hall of famers. But I do agree with some of these guys. And Delgado is definitely a high one. For all the times we hear about how many all-star teams a guy made, Delgado missing all-star teams was not an indictment on his talent and production. That guy was awesome for about 13 straight seasons and just happened to be hiding in canada, playing possibly the most loaded position of his era. Kind of tough to make all-star teams playing the same spot as Frank Thomas, Mo Vaughn (before he malfunctioned), Jim Thome, Mark McGwire, Albert Pujols, and then in his later national League seasons there were Ryan Howard and Derek Lee who just happened to be in the midst of their 20-minute primes at that time.
Fans cannot be solely responsible for voting or you would have people like the guy on this thread who vote in anyone who was ever a Yankee just because he is a Yankee fan. Many if not most teams already have their own Hall of Fame and that’s where your favorite players from that team belong. But I do agree the system is highly flawed. The idea originally that writers could be unbiased and keep it fair has been unfortunately tainted by the idea that many writers have now transformed that responsibility into a sense of omniscience and believe they know more than the rest of us. You need a system where there are specific guidelines. Inarguable. Like the automatics would be 500 homers, 3,000 Ks and so on. And then the second tier guys that come close and need to be examined a little bit would be voted on. But not by the writers alone. Maybe you’d have a committee of 10 highly vetted writers who are not witch hunters and who’s credentials as knowledgeable baseball people are the least questioned in the business, 10 living Hall of Famers and 10 managers/executives. That committee’s output would equal 50% of the vote. Then maybe another 25% would be fan-based and the last 25% would be veteran, active players with at least 10 years of service. Something of this nature would have far more voices involved from different standpoints, allow the fans some say on who they want to see in there but also maintain enough equilibrium that you wouldn’t have outlandish, fan-elected outcomes based on just who played for my favorite team.
You have some pretty fun guys on these lists. Not sure every one of them is a Hall of Famer but definitely a great who’s who of a couple of generations of upper tier Major Leaguers. I think the Hall was originally designed to be the absolute best of the best, baseball’s oversized Mount Rushmore. It has since then become pretty watered down and that brings a lot of those guys into the conversation. But even in a time where we don’t have Lou Gehrigs, Hank Aarons, Walter Johnsons, Tris Speakers, Cy Youngs, Ted Williams or Honus Wagners, you still need to look for the guys who truly mattered in their eras. Dwight Evans, Carlos Delgado, Dave Parker, Lou Whitaker, Jeff Kent and several guys from the first list here who have been blackballed because of the PED nonsense, the Pete Rose fiasco and Curt Schilling having the audacity to think he’s allowed to have his own opinion here in communist America are the guys who should be in there due simply to performance on the field. But you can’t replicate the value of seeing the game played and several guys mentioned here certainly looked like they could have been Hall of Fame material at one time or another.
Today the new version of the Veteran’s committee will announce the new inductees… curious to hear your thoughts as to who they will be… My choices are Tommy John, Luis Tiant and Ken Boyer
Think there is a strong case for six gentlemen. Hope third time a charm for Allen. Pulling for Parker and John so they can celebrate with their families while still alive. It’s sad Allen and Tiant cannot …also what happened to Santo and Minoso getting elected right after passing is terrible IMO.
Agreed. They are all good choices…
Happy for Allen and Parker, both deserving… Very disappointed that Tommy John was not chosen he ALSO is very deserving….
Yes, good for those guys. I too would have liked to see John go in as well as Tiant but I guess it is what it is.
All of the guys of the ballot are deserving.
I would have been happy to see Tiant, Allen, Parker, Boyer, Garvey and John go in. Looking up information on Donaldson and Harris, not really sure why they are even on this ballot. I understand they played a lot less games in those leagues but Donaldson appears to have had a couple of solid seasons and otherwise never had more than 31 hits. And that was only once every other season he played had less. Harris seems to have shown no power, no speed and not much of anything else and who on the voting committee was possibly around to see this guy play live to make any major judgment on his defense one way or another? Again, aware they played less games than the regular major leagues but there were some guys in those leagues that really stood out like Charleston and Gibson and the baseball reference stats don’t really show that for these two guys. Maybe I’m missing something but I can’t really fault the voting committee on those two.
Harris was being considered as a manager. He has the highest winning percentage of any manager in Major League history, at .663, with at least 500 wins. As for Donaldson, he did not play for very long in the Major Leagues but achieved 428 wins and 5,295 strikeouts in a barnstorming career. I recommend this website (https://johndonaldson.bravehost.com/) as it can give more justice to Donaldson’s career than I ever could.
Interesting information. Obviously we’ve seen a tremendous movement toward integration retroactively in baseball in recent years. While many historical aspects of this country are unfortunate, and a guy like Donaldson’s statistical output appears impressive in retrospect, it is probably accurate to assume the voters for this ballot struggle to reconcile barnstorming statistics with Major League standards. While some of those games may have been played against some professional players, many were played against semi-professional teams and whoever else would give them a game. Since we generally do not put minor league players into the Major League Hall of Fame, presumptively, this would be a difficult case to advocate. The sentiment of this integration is understandable but begs the question, why do we not integrate NPB players into the Hall of Fame? Granted there may be some minor disparities between rules of the game like a slightly smaller baseball ( which actually is probably more difficult to hit), tie games, etc but, many of those players have come here and proven able to play in either league. And NPB has also surely shown a propensity to compete on the international stage.
Agreed. The attempt to integrate is understandable but sites like baseball reference are now listing guys with barely 4000 plate appearances at best as all time leaders. And by definition, barnstorming relates to exhibitions so it’s kind of hard to justify electing people who built careers on barnstorming. As far as NPB, I get the comparison but it is called the National Baseball Hall of Fame so it would stand to reason that it is for this “Nation” argumentatively. Though it doesn’t specify only this nation. But also by that token, it doesn’t say “Major League” anywhere in the title so why aren’t others considered such as prominent minor league lifers?
There is a sad logic to the thinking that if Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds are not in then none of these contenders measure up. The sooner that this issue is cleared up and the ex-post-facto witch hunt is overruled, the better for fans of baseball and the Hall.
Agreed. First of all, other than is obvious physical increases which we could all see, the only indictment on Bonds is Balco documentation. The only indictment on Clemens is hearsay. Neither guy ever failed a test so who made the writer’s gods? You can not like them all you want but to keep playing judge and jury when no one cares who the hell you are in the first place is ridiculously presumptuous of your own importance and extremely self-aggrandizing at best. End it already, this has become just silliness.
Right. Aside from saving face among peers, how many of the writers who actually have votes watched baseball pre Mitchell report? And of all those that did, how many can honestly say they were up in arms over ped use during that time? Many will probably say they were but many are probably liars and really need to get over themselves. This is what happens when society becomes a place where no one has their own opinion, not shaped by what others think of them or the fear of being canceled by people who don’t matter anyway.
I read an article that claimed electing Dick Allen was a mistake because it should have been done sooner. I’d like to see the same mistake made for Luis Tiant, Cecil Travis, Barney McCoskey, Vern Stephens, Tommy Henrich, Sherry Magee, John Beckwith, Frank Howard and Rocky Colavito.
You guys keep lowering the bar I keep hitting my head on it.
These are guys who had great runs but not great careers. Howard, Colavito, Stephens and Sievers were important parts of some teams for relatively decent stretches but when they fell off a cliff they really fell. All very similar guys in terms of homers, hits, RBIs and overall on base ability but baseball history is literally littered with guys who fall into this category. Some of those other guys barely racked up a few thousand plate appearances and their numbers accordingly pale in comparison to even some of their peers in their own generations never mind all time. You could put all those guys in there but then you would wind up with the Hall of Every Tom, Dick and Harry not named Mario Mendoza, Bob Uecker and Mickey Morandini because there are a lot of other guys very similar to them that would then have a case. I do think Tiant should go but there are several far more deserving guys who still aren’t in there and produced more impressive careers than a lot of these guys. It’s kind of unfortunate in the respect that some of these guys could certainly stand to be remembered my future fans. Obviously you go to the hall and see the greatest of all time and then some guys that maybe aren’t quite the greatest of all time but I guess it really has to end somewhere. There are only so many Ted Williams, Willie Mays and Randy Johnsons so it would be a pretty small place if you only went there to see the actual elite which, necessitates consideration of the next level or two down. Going down another level or two from that would require doubling the size of the building because those tears are very highly represented throughout baseball history.
Dustin Pedroia and Ian Kinsler are not hall of famers I get it, but neither is Utley. Come on!
Neither is Jones for that matter and he’s getting votes. And please spare me the “greatest center fielder of all time based on magical “metrics” that can only be applied to certain eras and somehow pertain to fielding prowess while ignoring fielding percentage, errors, assists etc. He hit 400+ home runs and was otherwise nothing that amazing on offense. So he was a better than average, athletically gifted fielder. So were a lot of guys.
We can make a case for Andruw Jones as one of the best, if not the best center fielder of all time. He won 10 gold gloves if I’m not wrong, what a center fielder he was! He could go in a la Ozzie Smith style
Shouldn’t have to make a case. Should be a lot more obvious. I don’t necessarily believe Smith was a lock either. Gold gloves are a prestigious award but your job is to make plays at your position. If you can’t then you are Masataka Yoshida or any number of guys who’s only value was on offense, hence the DH. Yes she was graceful, athletic, instinctive and made an awful lot of great place but, when I grew up, I was still at the center fielders job as to back up the left fielder and the right fielder and the two middle infielders. That’s your job. You have a glove, go catch the ball. But please do us a favor, when you’re at the fleet, please don’t hit .254 with less than 400 doubles and not even 2,000 hits if we’re going to pay you to be a top tier producer. Jim Edmonds and Torii Hunter we’re also great center fielders with 8 and 9 Gold gloves respectively. They may have had less homers (not that many less) but all their other offensive numbers are much better than Jones. But somehow they are ignored and they’re gold gloves are not as important as Jones when making their cases. That’s crap. Carlos Beltran was a great center fielder and also blows away Jones offensively but he’s struggling for votes because he banged on a trash can. Let’s see, stealing signs, which has been done for decades and no one cared, or whacking your wife around… Hmmm .. and of course his supporters will say he made a mistake or it was not on the field. It’s still a black eye for the game and one of the standards for voting is character. Okay, he made a mistake and maybe him and his wife are over it and maybe he deserves to move forward, Beltran, Schilling, Rose and everyone else who made a “mistake” don’t deserve to put it in the past and move forward? Why? Because of 10 gold gloves? Who cares?
I agree with you, but that’s basically the same reason why Ozzie Smith is in the hall, because of his glove.
Right, but thatthe same issue with Chase Utley, a guy has a .275 lifetime average and not even 1,900 career hits.
People want something to believe in and far be it from me to crush that. But for everyone who likes to believe in these so called modern statistics, there should also be an ability to apply such statistics in an overall analysis before making nonsensical judgments. Andruw Jones is an anomaly in that, his first few years of flashy and spectacular fielding set a tone for those who watched him and no one ever bothered to really think about what went on through his entire career. He was anointed a great center fielder and the legend only grew. Now, in light of the fact that, beyond 400 plus home runs, he has no offensive case for the Hall of Fame whatsoever, this ridiculous idea of Jones being the god of center fielders is all that’s left to make the argument. Forget about the fact that he pulled his wife down the stairs, choked her and told her he wanted to kill her, especially since many of the BBWAA seem to have already forgotten it. If you break down the career of Andruw Jones, all of his amazing defense happened in his first 11 seasons. He might as well have been sleeping on a park bench under some newspapers after he left Atlanta.
During Jones first handful of seasons, he showed an amazing propensity to cover a lot of ground, make spectacular diving catches and quickly turn and go back on balls that would have seemed impossible given how shallow he played in the field. Jones then started to put on weight and didn’t move anywhere nearly as quickly as he did in those first handful of seasons. He made an awful lot of outs on shallow drop in hits because he was standing about 10 ft off of second base. Many of those balls would have normally fallen in for a hit or should have been played by the second baseman or the shortstop. The reason for this? How about that the Braves pitching staffs in front of him spent several years as the best, can of corn producing staff in all of baseball? Don’t think so? Look at the positive defensive numbers for his outfield teammates during those seasons. Yes he had a strong arm and therefore was able to accumulate a good number of assists because he was almost standing in the damn infield! And maybe you could make an argument that the fly ball rate was not necessarily a gimme but they also had the league’s lowest home run rate allowed for years. Jim Edmonds, Torii Hunter and others were already great center fielders so imagine how much better their numbers would have appeared with a pitching staff basically forcing pop-ups all day long, allowing you to stand so shallow in center field that you can basically make a bunch of simple catches and gun people down from 20 ft away. Argue it all you want but that’s the reality of Andruw Jones defensive “metrics”. Don’t get me wrong, he was a superb fielder but he was definitely not the greatest fielder of all time. And if you add all of this together, it’s certainly not enough to make up for all the missing offensive numbers outside of his home run total. And certainly doesn’t add up to Hall of Famer.There are modern defensive numbers that would suggest Andrew Jones is basically twice the center field or Willie Mays was. No shot in hell. That’s just simply ridiculous. His voting trends suggest he will eventually get in but they also suggest a severe lack of knowledge among the BBWAA. His defensive war number alone looks so ridiculously out of place among his peers, anyone with half the ability to do an eye test should be able to resolve that this is a ridiculous anomaly. Yes he was a great fielder, no he was not so much better than anyone who’s ever played the game that almost half of his war value came from his defense. A pretty solid chunk of that is owed to his pitching staff. Otherwise, how was he suddenly not that amazing anymore and never won another Gold Glove as soon as he left Atlanta? He forgot how to play defense? Or he no longer had that same pitching staff? One seems a little more realistic than the other.
Right, and the same is going on with Chase Utley, clearly not a hall of famer. Less than 1,900 career hits and a .275 career hitter. That doesn’t scream hall of fame to me.
So one ballot in the box and already I wonder… How do you see Andruw Jones in the hall and not Bobby Abreu? Let’s get the obvious argument out of the way, for everyone who cares about war, they’re really not far apart at all. The easy for Jones, he has 150 home runs, 11 slugging points and 9 gold gloves on Abreu. On the flip side, Abreu has him by 600 walks, 250 steals, 200 doubles, 550 hits, 250 runs, 25 triples, 60 OBP points, 50 ops points, 80 RBIs and he batted almost 40 points higher than Jones. I know there is a lot of love for Jones’s defense but nine gold gloves trumps all of that?? I don’t see it.
Suzuki should be unanimous, Sabathia would get my vote, Beltran should already be in, as should Wagner, and I guess I wouldn’t begrudge Utley a spot but again, comparatively I don’t see his overall numbers blowing away Ian Kinsler so not sure how one goes and one doesn’t but hey whatever.
The steroid thing is beyond ridiculous at this point, Ramirez is on a pedestal with Ruth, Williams, Foxx, Mays and a small handful of other guys who have batted .300 and belted 500 home runs. Maybe he juiced but that’s not what makes you a Hall of Fame hitter. And unless you’re going to purge the hall of all cheaters and wrongdoers then this argument is extremely stale.
Bobby Abreu is just one of those guys who gets overlooked because of his lack of accolades. Very similar to Dwight Evans; has the numbers of a Hall of Famer, but not the name recognition.
Yes I think if there is ever a most-underated all-time team Abreu and Evans are sure-fire starters.
I agree, but one would think that with all the stats available, one would catch players like Abreu and Evans.
This is test ballot. It’s there until first ballot
He was a good player, but can a player who has never finished in the top 10 in MVP voting be given the greatest title of his generation, the Hall of Fame?
Well first off, I don’t necessarily think Abreu is a Hall of Fame lock type of guy. My real point I guess is that neither is Jones but if I had to choose between the two it would definitely be Abreu since as illustrated above, he clearly tops Jones all over the map. But I think this also illustrates why piling up some awards is not a barometer for a hall of famer. Go back through the first year of MVP voting, look up the top 20 finalists and as you go through every year, count up how many times you can easily make an argument that the winner should not have won and possibly should not have even come in the top five. Then throw away all the hypothetical modern so-called metrics and see how many guys could easily have gotten the attention of the voters had they been maybe more flashy or created a larger celebrity platform for themselves. Abreu was not Superstar material personality-wise but he quietly put together 9 20-20 seasons with a pair of 30-30 seasons thrown in there, was a solid if not spectacular fielder, ended up right around .300 annually and was definitely never the reason his teams didn’t go all the way. He sat around through Philadelphia’s rebuild years with a couple of guys like maybe Rolen and Burrell in his lineups and only caught the beginning of the Utley / Rollins/ Howard years. He was shipped off to New York where he gave them a few good seasons and then toiled away in California with not much around him to speak of there. Far too often the guys who get the MVP votes put up maybe some huge home run numbers and don’t bat their weight and a guy like Abreu, quietly puts together solid all around season after solid all around season and is ignored. But that’s the nature of the beast. A guy who goes out there every day and bats .300, gets on base, please solid defense, steals bases and moves himself along, scores runs and piles up some extra base hits is far more valuable to me than a guy who hits 50 bombs but we probably have to wait a week between solid performances before he runs into a good fastball. Look how many times a guy wins MVP and his team doesn’t even get into the playoffs. How valuable is that?
On the other hand, if you look at Jones, he very strongly resembles a guy like Darrell Evans with some gold gloves. Or better yet, Dale Murphy with a handful more of gold gloves. If either of those two guys had batted somewhere around .300 for their careers, they’d have been in the hall long ago. So why would we now ignore all of that for a guy who batted .254? Because of some gold gloves? Okay he was a good fielder but so were several other guys. And the guy who is a little more flashy like Jones generally takes the cake. There have been plenty of cases throughout baseball history where a guy just becomes the consensus favorite through flashiness, personality, exposure and any number of intangibles and then we are left to look back and second guess. But I think that’s why we all kind of know that subjective awards only mean so much so I don’t know how they’ve become such a barometer for Hall of Fame qualifications. Murphy was an MVP and not only did he win five gold gloves but he played all three outfield positions after playing catcher and first base. He landed a pair of homers shy of 400, right around dead even with Jones everywhere else and batted 11 points higher. So how can we think a guy who never actually won an MVP, batted lower than this guy and otherwise replicates his career, beyond a handful of gold gloves is a hall of famer? Not to mention the domestic violence thing. People make mistakes and move on and they should be entitled to but somehow I don’t see how a bunch of voters can beat the hell out of some guys who took peds, which hurt no one else physically by the way, and ignore a guy man-handling his wife. I guess I’m no expert on moral ethics but that seems far worse to me. And as for the argument that he didn’t cheat the game, technically, there are ethics clauses in MLB rules so by that standard, yes he did. He blatantly screwed the game out of it’s moral value from the standpoint that his popularity represented a face of the game and that kind of behavior doesn’t represent it very well.
Well, calm down. There are many cases where a majority vote leads to unsatisfactory results. For example, I can’t even accept that Beltran is on this list. But if it’s decided by the votes of several hundred experts, we have no choice but to accept it.
Oh I’m calm, nothing personal brother. But I think you kind of help me make the point.
“But if it’s decided by the votes of several hundred experts, we have no choice but to accept it.”
What the hell makes someone an “expert” in opinions? Getting a job as a talking head? Watching baseball games? We all watch baseball games.
I may not work for some daily herald or worse, some piece of crap sports blog on a computer where I spout off the same things all my peers spout off because we don’t have an original thought between us but I certainly have watched more than enough baseball in my time to know the difference between who’s good and who’s not. And all without the help of fictitious, hypothetical “statistics”. Like I don’t need “war” to tell me who somebody “might” be better than. And I can’t rely on things like total zone defensive whatever to tell me what somebody “should” be able to do. How can you sit on a sideline, wishing you were as good as the people on the field and make crap-headed decisions about what someone’s fielding range should be? (Again, not you personally but, these so-called experts).
Not sure why you don’t like Beltran but as far as the choices for Hall of Fame induction, this guy blows away most of the list. 2700 hits, 400 home runs, 300 steels, almost 600 doubles, and he was one hell of a centerfielder. .279 avg isn’t glorious but it’s also not horrible, especially combined with all the other numbers he put up. But he banged on some trash cans so he’s going to get punished as well. He may be just shy of traditional benchmarks across the board but in a time when most people are, and the supposed “experts” are looking for people to get behind, he’s one of the closest things to it on the list.
Sign stealing has been part of the game since day one. Obviously the Astros were a little more elaborate in their approach but the result is no different than a guy standing on second base, deciphering the catcher signs and relaying them to the dugout. That’s happened for decades upon decades and no one was ever kept out of the Hall of Fame for it or suspended indefinitely.
Once more, this is never personal between fans and some people let it get that way but, for those of us who are passionate fans and have watched this game our entire lives, accepting nonsense is not part of the plan. And this is just where we come to vent.
At the very least, they’ll give Jones a better rating than someone who calls his defense “some gold gloves and good fielder.”
If the best defensive center fielder since Mays hit more home runs than Stanton, I don’t need to analyze too closely and think he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
I see your view but you also said you don’t understand Beltran being on the list. He was an excellent defender, hit more home runs than Jones and beyond that blows him away and every other statistic.
400 home runs used to be pretty much a lock if you piled up any other meaningful stats. Konerko and Delgado not only have more home runs but more hits, doubles, higher averages etc and we’re basically afterthoughts in Hall of Fame voting. Torii Hunter may only have 350 homers but he has almost 500 doubles, nine gold gloves and again beats Jones all over the map. So I guess my point would be not so much, don’t elect Jones but how the hell do all these other guys fall so short in comparison? There is something drastically wrong with that system.
Believe me, though I’m no retired pro ball player, I played center field for years and I played it as hard as I could. I learned by watching footage of the greats and blew out my knees playing that hard. Backing up the right shielder, the left fielder, the two middle infielders and I played every game with the belief that there wasn’t a ball I wasn’t getting to. I love the value of great fielding as much as anyone and it was right up there with hitting and stealing bases as far as I was concerned, as my favorite things to do on a diamond. But if we’re going to look at guys with 400 plus home runs, .280 averages, at least 400 doubles and at least 2,000 hits, I can’t see how a guy who falls short of all of that except for 400 homers and great defense goes in while so many other guys who accomplished all of that do not.
I think Jones’ defense should be treated more like Ozzie Smith’s, not Torii Hunter’s or Greffey Jr’s.
The fact that he was the best defender of all time at a key position should make any issues with his hitting stats go away.
Of course, the reason I hate Beltran is because of the trash can. Because of him, even when I see a player like Acuna Jr. whose K% changed dramatically in just one year and all his batting stats improved, I always suspect he cheated first.
Personally, when it comes to Hall of Famers, I prefer players with unparalleled skills over players who have consistently achieved 20-20.
When I explain about Hall of Fame players 50 years from now, I don’t want to give a one-hour presentation to explain how great Abreu was. I think Hall of Fame players are the ones whose greatness is immediately obvious to everyone.
However, everyone has their own values, and your opinion has been formed through long experience, so I respect it.
Mostly I think we look at things the same way. But I can tell you I spent a lot of years wondering about guys cheating and how I felt about it. Long before we heard of trash can banging or anyone cared about steroids. When I first saw Jose Canseco at Fenway Park in the ’80s, there were people yelling steroids and laughing just because it was so obvious. I had a minor league baseball card of him and he looked like he was probably about 70 lb lighter only a couple of seasons before he got to the majors. McGwire was a beast when he showed up on the scene and nowhere near what he looked like in St Louis when he was about the size of a small mountain. But there were so many guys that started to look like that in pretty short order and everyone was just astounded by the power displays (the 98 Home run race was one of the greatest eras in baseball, gave the writers something to follow and rave about only for them to now take a crap on the same guys and pretend they are up in arms). And not every guy could provide it. That was part of why it wasn’t such a big deal. Before there were people telling us math equations to judge output, we could all see who was really good and who wasn’t. Felix Jose was a pretty good sized dude when he came up for the Athletics but he couldn’t hit his own ass with the toilet seat.
Beyond that, there have been guys who took amphetamines, snorted coke (Tim Raines nickname Rock was not because he was solid and he’s in the Hall of Fame), scuffed balls, rubbed any number of things on balls, corked bats and on and on. Stealing signs has been part of the game since long before I was alive. So now, when I’m coaching Little League kids, I have given those things a lot of thought over time. Every time I see a kid trying to do the hidden ball trick or trying to “frame” a pitch, the reality hits me that baseball has never been a clean game. Banging trash cans is simply the evolution of a runner standing on second and memorizing signs to later relay them to batters. We get worked up because we’d love to believe that to baseball players facing off is the epitome of gladiators doing battle in the arena. One-on-one, you against me, let’s see who gets the best of who from purely the standpoint of athleticism and talent. But that’s not baseball. No one ever calls a pitcher a cheater because he watches film. But he watches that film to pick up nuances and tendencies based on the batter’s history. He’s not facing that guy one on one from a clean slate, he’s going up there armed with knowledge that certain guys, standing a certain way will, 95% of the time go after a specific pitch. He’s basically playing the odds, just like Vegas. Where are things more impure than Vegas? I’m not saying it’s cheating but what I’m saying is that as long as there has been baseball, there have been players trying to get one over one way or another. But in this day and age, everyone seems to think they are a Puritan and that there is some glory to be gained by catching people doing something shady. What we really are doing is making fools of ourselves because, in reality, none of us are perfect or ever will be. When we have a Hall of Fame full of guys who have used drugs, displayed racism and employed any other tactics, not pure to the game, banging on trash cans kind of pales in comparison for me. And my real thought on sign stealing of any kind is that, I can tell you all day long what’s coming but it’s not automatic you’re going to hit it. And even if you do, there’s no guarantee you’re going to hit it well or well enough to get a base hit. Several guys on that Houston team have produced pretty good careers with or without the trash cans. And it’s not like Houston went 162 and 0 because they employed such a foolproof plot to foil the entire Major League. But, as you said, everyone’s going to have their opinion. That’s just how I’ve come to break it down in my time. By that same token though, holding guys accountable for shady behavior would definitely preclude a guy like Jones. I can’t think of too many things done to get a leg up in baseball that are worse than manhandling a woman.
As far as the defense, like I said, I value defense greatly but at the same time, from your standpoint of Hall of Famers being obvious, which I wholeheartedly agree with, Jones falls on the other side of that line to me. I feel that a kid looking at a list of the Hall of Fame center fielders would wonder why most of his numbers ended up pretty pedestrian across the board except for the 400 home runs. I saw the guy play and he was a great defender. I also saw Kenny Lofton play and he was just as good in my eyes. He also stole 600 bags and rapped 2400 hits. He didn’t, however even get to 400 doubles but he did have 116 triples. And that guy is kind of borderline to me. Which brings me to Ozzie Smith. I don’t quite think Ozzie Smith belonged in the Hall of Fame. Yes he was a great defensive player. But he also barely hit 400 doubles in 11,000 plate appearances. And it wasn’t because he used his speed and athleticism turning them into triples since he only ended up with 69 of those. If you’re going to be a Hall of Famer with 11,000 plate appearances and only hit 28 home runs, I’d like to see at least 500 doubles and 500 steals for a guy with that kind of speed and athleticism. He really wasn’t much of a hitter at all. About average and maybe a little below when it matters most.
I think the reason I would have trouble saying either of those guys is a Hall of Famer without a doubt in the scenario that a Hall of Famer should be obvious is that, without the subjectively great defense (because let’s face it, a pretty good amount of the plays any guy makes are fundamental to the point that we teach little Leaguers these are easy outs and catches that should be made by anyone playing the position), there is still too much to explain. Without the gold gloves, Jones offensively is not much more than Dave Kingman. Omar Vizquel has a much better fielding percentage than Ozzie Smith but he was not likable and so no one has made concessions for his otherwise average career. So, like I said, I value defense greatly but I also think a large part of defense should be pretty fundamental and if you can’t do it, you probably don’t belong in the major leagues to begin with or at least not at that position. I could watch footage of an athletic savant like Bo Jackson running up and down the outfield walls all day long but if the rest of his game doesn’t quite match up in the end or even look remotely comparable to his historical peers, I feel like there’s too much explaining to do for him to be in the hall. And then if he throws his wife down the stairs, I can’t see how that’s ignorable when peds and trash can banging are not.
I respect that you like Jones and don’t like the trash cans and I get why you would feel that way. Obviously there are many who agree with you on those things. And I appreciate that you respect my views. That’s what makes this such a great forum at times.
Just because there have been worse people in the past doesn’t mean I can ignore the bad people out there now.
My favorite team and player lost to the Astros in 2017, and it’s still fresh in my memory, so I may be severely biased.
When I started watching baseball, Jones was late in his career, so I knew very little about what he did with woman until you told me. If I had known Jones since he was younger, I think I would have disliked him.
Well I know that sucks. I like the Dodgers too. I actually like several teams as I just live baseball and family influences from around the country turned me on to different teams growing up. Ohio relatives made me a Reds fan very young, same with the Mets and Queens relatives. Being a New Englander I had plenty of Sox family, and several older family members were Dodgers and Braves fans since they were in Brooklyn and Boston way back.
86 was a great and crappy Series since I like both teams and 90 is the last time the Reds delivered.
Anyway, the losses suck but at least ‘Dem Bums have grabbed a couple of recent ones and have been pretty relevant for a long time now.
I don’t think they lost the ’17 series because of trash cans though. I think they lost because Puig, Bellinger, Turner, Seager and Taylor all went to sleep at the same time. They got mostly no offensive production from the guys who had delivered the most prior to the series and still were able to go seven games. Houston didn’t put on a great offensive display either for a team that supposedly knew everything that was coming. George Springer happened to catch fire and things fell for Houston in game seven. I know it was frustrating but remember, the trash cans didn’t stop the Dodgers from hitting that series.
And, again, sign stealing was done long long long before this. Guys on base, someone watching from the bleachers, clubhouse TV’s catching the live feed from center field. This was just the one that was blown out of proportion to make an example. I wanted LA in that series too but if you let people convince you that teams lose entire series over these types of things you’ll spend forever being paranoid about the game. You can tell guys all day what’s coming and what’s not but the ball still gets thrown and the batter still has the same chance to read it. No one forces him to do anything.
And sorry about the Jones news. I think anyone sincere deserves the chance at redemption but the voters haven’t given that benefit to anyone else so why now? Roger Clemens, among others, never failed a test and his use of PEDs was never proven concrete, beyond a shadow of a doubt yet, they kept him out and this is one of the top 5 pitchers in history.
I agree with nearly everything. Any player that was not suspended for using roids, should get elected. Palmero, AROD etc should still be considered after getting suspended. The minute Ortiz was elected (as he should be) all the other players who didn’t fail a test, should be allowed.
I also think Utley is a difficult player to put in. I do agree Abreu should be voted, but consider Jones a much more deserving player. The gold gloves are not a side note. He was one of the greatest OF ever.
Great post. Hopefully Jones, Abreu , Manny etc eventually get the call!!
I don’t necessarily think gold gloves are a side note, I just think they are not grounds for the Hall by themselves. He was a great defensive player but so were several other guys. Among those guys are Griffey Jr, Mays, Mantle, Snider, Speaker and Cobb. The last 3 played before gold gloves existed and in Snider’s case, only a handful of seasons at the end of his career when gold gloves were new and he was old. These are the greatest center fielders ever and outside of his gold gloves and 400 homers, make Jones look like Tony Armas. Kenny Lofton was an excellent center fielder. He’s been ignored despite several other comparable and better stats than Jones. Abreu, on the other hand, stacks up pretty well all the way around compared to right fielders. He wasn’t the best ever or even close but his all around game was far more complete than Jones. I also can’t see a guy batting just over .250 or not even reaching 2000 hits as a real Hall of Famer.
I think a lot of concessions have been made in lieu of having great , obvious players to vote for and I think that’s why certain guys become the sudden flavor of the day and a bandwagon effect happens. I can’t recall anyone thinking this guy was a Halloween of Famer when he finished his career. And for the argument that we’ve somehow “evolved” statistically since then, we haven’t. We’ve just invented several supposed metrics, many of which are subjective or hypothetical, and applied them to justify a means to an end. But no metric spins .254 avg and 1900 hits into a hall of famer I don’t think.
Just my opinion.
Finally, Hall of Time once again!
This one is going to be very interesting. Too many candidates will be up for election. That could either be good or bad. Some pretty good candidates might fall off because of the too many candidates on the ballot. I would like to compare some candidates here.
I would like to begin with CC Sabathia, Mike Mussina and Felix Hernandez. Of course, Mike Mussina is a hall of famer, but it took him several years to be there, like 6 years if I’m not mistaken.
CC Sabathia 251 Wins, 3,093 Ks, 3.74 ERA, 62.3 WAR Cy Young
Mike Mussina 270 Wins, 2,813 Ks, 3.68 ERA, 82.2 WAR (HOF) No Cy Young
Felix Hernandez 169 Wins, 2,524 Ks, 3.42 ERA, 49.7 WAR Cy Young
Mike Mussina clearly was the better pitcher here and it took him about 6 years to make the hall of fame. Why should CC be first ballot? You be my guest.
I would also like to compare Chase Utley, Dustin Pedroia and Ian Kinsler, none of these are hall of famers so far, but would like to compare them.
Chase Utley .275 avg., 1,885 hits, 259 HRs, 64.5 WAR, 6 All Stars, no gold gloves, no MVPs
Dustin Pedroia .299 avg., 1,805 hits, 140 HRs, 51.9 WAR, 4 ALL Stars, 4 gold gloves, 1 MVP, ROY
Ian Kinsler .269 avg., 1,999 hits, 257 HRs, 54.1 WAR, 4 All Stars, 2 Gold gloves, No MVP
Why this comparison? Because a lot of people out there keep saying that Utley was the better second baseman of the three here above. Clearly, we can see that’s not the case. I’m not saying the other two are or should be hall of famers, but if Utley receives over a 28% of the vote for the hall of fame, then Pedroia and Kinsler should be near that as well.
One more comparison and the last one. I would like to compare Russell Martin with Brian McCann.
Russell Martin .248 avg., 191 HRs, 38.9 WAR, 4 All Star Games, 1 Gold Glove, 1 silver slugger, 0 MVPs
Brian McCann .262 avg., 282 HRs, 32 WAR, 7 All Stars, 6 Silver Sluggers, 0 gold gloves, o MVPs
Why that last comparison? I know neither are hall of famers or will be, but….heard a lot of people saying that Russell Martin was better than McCann…not true.
I meant hall of fame at the beginning of the post.
Excuse my grammar mistakes on the post above.
Yeah I definitely don’t see the Utley over Kinsler thing. Pretty neck and neck right down the line. Pedroia was pretty awesome and I know there will be plenty of sentiment against his longevity. However, if you want to hold war against a candidate, where does it end? The real war leaders are all in the 90s and well over 100 so making concessions for guys at 70 as though that’s amazing puts people like Scott Rolen in there. How is his 70 good enough but Lou Whitaker at 75 is not? Even being finished for all intents and purposes by 33 years old, Pedroia has a higher war than Hall of Fame second baseman. I have no use for war but just making your argument for you. War doesn’t tell you who the best are. For instance, Ted Williams has a lower war than several other guys all because he missed roughly six combined years between real wars and injuries. Anyone in their right mind would take him over most of the people ahead of him on the war list.
In reality, a guy should be judged on what he did in the time he did have not how much time he didn’t have. Not that we should be inducting people who have a great three or four years and do nothing else ever but for a guy to hit.299 with 1800 hits and win championships, you should just consider what he did in the time he did it.
Utley will probably get more consideration than Kinsler and Pedroia because his peak was better. (Best seven seasons: 49.3, compared to 38.1 and 41.0, respectively). Utley’s JAWS score puts him between Ryne Sandberg and Lou Whitaker (who should be in the Hall), and above guys like Alomar and Biggio. Pedroia and Kinsler’s scores put them close to guys like Kent and Altuve (right now), and they don’t have the counting stats those guys do so they might be overlooked. Second base is underrepresented in the hall right now, unfortunately, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
The problem is that Utley doesn’t have the counting stats either, only 1,885 career hits. In fact Kinsler had more hits than Utley (1,999 career hits) Pedroia had over 1,800 hits as well, same as Utley.
Sad but the voting body gets younger so you get what we’re getting. They’ll go so far to justify wars and zones and jaws and hypotheticals that the real accomplishments are ignored. Voting for a guy who’s big offensive contribution is 430 home runs and then so-so because he has 10 gold gloves is ridiculous. The guy batted garbage, hung on too long and threw his wife down the stairs. That’s a hall of fame resume??? Get real.
Agreed with you 100%
Really I see Utley and Kinsler have obviously higher totals than Pedroia but clearly due to his unfortunate knee circumstance. I can actually get behind Pedroia because the guy just screamed Hall of famer pretty much his whole career until the injury wiped them out. The other two guys piled up some numbers but if they were in there they would be among the very lower echelon of Hall of Fame second baseman. Like Joe Gordon, Lazzeri and Evers. Three guys I’m not even sure belong in there in the first place. And then there are guys beyond that like Bid McPhee who probably don’t either. Every other second baseman in there had at least 2000 hits and many of them batted .300 or close to it. Even Lazzeri batted over .290. no we’re going to watch guys go in there who didn’t even get to 2000 hits or bat at least .280? Getting a little silly I think.
Sabathia: Cy Young, 3,000 strikeouts and a World Series champion.
That’s why he’s a first ballot guy.
Yeah, but his ERA is a little high. If I compare CC with Mike Mussina here is because Mussina was better than him and it took Mussina about 6 years to make it. So, to my point, CC will probably make it, but it’s going to take him a couple of years for it.
If I had a vote it’s Manny, Suzuki, Sabathia, Abreu, Wagner, Rodriguez, Beltran, K-Rod, Pedroia and Petite. I don’t care about wars and jaws and hypotheticals, these are the guys who did what needed to happen and produced more than admirably in the time they had. Pedey might not have high numbers all over the place but blowing out a knee wasn’t his choice. What he did in the time he played was more than great.
Agreed!
As a Yankees fan, I must always back my ex-players here. My ten votes are:
Alex Rodriguez Ichiro Suzuki C.C. Sabathia Curtis Granderson Bobby Abreu
David Wright Billy Wagner Troy Tulowitzki Andrew Jones Andy Pettitte.
Not bad Vic but if you’re going Arid then the juice doesn’t bother you, in which case, how do you leave out Manny?
Tulo had 7 solid seasons in Colorado and one decent one in Toronto. You’re voting for him because he played 5 games with the Pinstripes? As far as infielders go, he doesn’t touch Pedroia, Utley or Kinsler and you leave them out. Over 5 Yankee games? Just wondering..
I already said that I’m a Yankees fan. A Rod was a Yankee. Manny Ramirez was not. I didn’t like him playing for the Red Sox or Dodgers.
I like Utley, but don’t care about Pedroia or Kinsler. I miss the days when you can put 15 names instead of 10.
So if you were a Royals fan you would just put Bob Hamlin, Danny Jackson and Buddy Biancalana in there just because they were Royals?
I don’t have a vote, but if I did, I would vote for Bobby Abreu, Carlos Beltran, Mark Buehrle, Andruw Jones, Andy Pettitte, Alex Rodriguez, CC Sabathia, Ichiro Suzuki, Chase Utley, and Billy Wagner.
CC Sabathia’s case was pretty much or very similar to Andy Pettitte and Andy doesn’t seem to be getting more support. Sabathia had a Cy Young and 3,000 k’s and one world champion. But….Pettitte was a five-time champion, and his case is not moving forward.
Pettitte’s overall body of work was not bad but he falls short of guys like Frank Tanana, Jerry Koosman, Chuck Finley and several others. Pettitte’s ERA is 756th all time which kind of screams mediocrity to begin with. He didn’t even get to 3500 strikeouts and the guy threw four shutouts in his entire career. The biggest reason he’s made at this long is probably that he’s one of the better options in the last several years in an age where hands down, lights out dominant pictures are fading from existence. Sabathia is 18th all time in strikeouts and we’re not going to see too many guys hitting big victory numbers or strike out numbers for a long time because the focus has become for guys to throw as hard as they can until they blow their arm out which is making it difficult for anyone to pitch more than five innings so they’re not going to rack up victories too often since many times games are won in the later innings after the guy has already left the mound. So then we have guys like Felix Hernandez who win the Cy Young award with 12 or 13 victories. Granted the rest of his numbers that you were good but 10 years before that he never would have won that award because too many guys pitched deeper into games and want a lot more while still hammering out all the other numbers. That’s because guys used to know how to pitch and didn’t rely on velocity velocity velocity. The game is going backwards to a caveman mentality. I have bigger muscles than you so I can punch harder me win fight. Sure, until Bruce Lee comes along and kicks your ass at 170 lb with finesse. On top of all of that, Pettitte admitted to ped use so the tight pants, cancel culture voting body besides his apologies and admissions are not good enough because they can’t strike out Mario Mendoza. There’s your difference in a nutshell.
**He didn’t get to 2500 Ks it should say
This should never have been this difficult. Hall of famers are pretty easy to spot, they are the guys who set or break the standard in their respective roles. Which means your real Hall of famers on this ballot are Manny, Arod, Wagner, Suzuki and based on hitting the 3,000 strikeout plateau, Sabathia. Although Sabathia’s ERA is the highest of anyone with 3,000 strikeouts ever. At 3.74 he is a good chunk higher considering no one ever had 3,000 strikeouts and a 3.50 ERA. That should leave Beltran, Abreu and K-Rod as the arguables. Everyone else is basically a concession in lieu of PEDs and trashcan banging so we’re crapping up the hall with silly excuses like 70 wars and several gold gloves. What the hell is that?
Agree completely. There have always been guys that are so much close and they hang on for a little while and maybe finally get in which is fine because hey, who else is going to go if they’re just aren’t enough top of the list superstars around? Trout looked like he was going to be a shoe in from day one but he sure is making it difficult to keep thinking that way. Is this guy ever going to be healthy again? But I think it’s Arod, Ramirez, Wagner and Suzuki for sure. And CCs higher era is pushing it but I always liked the 3,000 strikeout barometer myself. Guys like Utley are troublesome for me because he had a better than average career but when I think about true Hall of Famers he doesn’t quite make it.
This makes perfect sense. And 3,000 strikeouts is a pretty impressive number. Yeah the ERA was a little higher than everyone else in the club but not too many guys strike out 3,000. And probably a lot less will now because they only pitch a thousand miles an hour for 5 minutes a game and leave.
I can’t understand how somebody would vote for Arod and not Manny. If the peds don’t bother you then how are they possibly not both locks? If you’re trying to differentiate ped use, Arod tested positive for actual anabolic steroids while Ramirez tested for estrogen. THE GUY TESTED POSITIVE FOR BREAST ENHANCEMENT!!! I’m very aware they are considered to be a cover-up after steroid use but one guy actually tested positive for steroids and the other guy tested positive for trying to grow a pair of boobs. How do you vote for one and not the other?
I can get the rationale. Ramirez has the statistics of a Hall of Famer, but Rodriguez is statistically one of the 10-15 greatest baseball players ever. If A-Rod stats were decreased by 20-30%, he would still be a Hall of Famer, and I don’t think you can make that same argument about Manny. Manny also failed two drug tests, so people are not going to be as charitable when it comes to his candidacy.
Likewise I can see that rationale however, no matter how you slice reduction of statistics, Manny still outbatted Arod, out slugged him, got on base at a higher clip and therefore bests him in OPS. Arod I had 2500 more plate of appearances than Manny yet only beat him by 140 home runs and pretty similar in RBIs. So while he may have racked up 600 more hits and 300 more steals than Manny, he did it in 2500 more plate appearances and still ends up behind or very close to manny. Doubles for instance, they are one apart. But the hands down stat Manny posted that makes him pretty automatic no matter what is this list: Ruth, Foxx, Ott, Williams, Mays, Aaron, Thomas, Manny and Cabrera. Only nine guys ever to hit 500 home runs and bat over .300 for a career. All in the hall except Cabrera who very likely will be pretty soon.
Personally I don’t care about the PEDS because I’m not jaded enough to believe there weren’t way more guys doing it than we ever found out or ever will find out. And if PEDS were the answer to greatness then why didn’t half the league post the same stats these guys posted? We all know what peds really do to the body so we should all be just as aware that they do not create the greatest players of all time. Strength is only strength and if you do not have the “great responsibility to handle great power” then I guess you are Gabe Kapler, Greg Luzinski or any number of guys who could punch out a horse by somehow did not become Hall of Famers because they were super strong.
Every generation has had it’s downfalls and it’s share of guys trying to get one over. Whatever your era did not have was a bunch of bandwagon jumping, holier than thou, mindless internet riders with their own platforms trying to be the next great sage.
Voting for Utley and not for Pedroia or Kinsler is a joke. The three of them look pretty much the same way. They are on the same level. Dustin Pedroia is the one with more accolades from the theee of them and the best batting average as well.
It’s a shame Jeff Kent was overlooked
Exactly
Kent was a no-brainer. Voting body is a circus act.
It’s a shame that Lou Whitaker was also overlooked
True
Whitaker too. He had a hell of a career but I think he was more a victim of the era where voters still looked for standout Hall of Fame numbers. He didn’t get to 2500 hits, 400 or even 300 homers or even 250 as a second baseman and we used to look past avgs under .280 when those other things were also missing.
But I think he’s got one of those really solid all-around bodies of work that looks even better now. Now we’re talking about Utley and Kinsler when Sweet Lou was better than both of them.
I don’t know how Whitaker and Kent didn’t get in.
Because the voting body likes to scoff and chuckle over fans who know what they’re watching. These clowns need ridiculous made up crap like jaws and war to tell them who the hypothetical hall guys are now. And the longer it goes on, the more people don’t want to seem foolish for ignoring it so they jump on board and now we’ll go on having a Hall of Who the Hell are these Guys???
Since when was Utley better than Pedroia?
Since never. Utley played longer because Pedroia blew out the knee. Still batted .299 with only 80 less hits than Utley in less at bats. Pretty close everywhere else and superior defender to Utley and Kinsler. Utley and Kinsler are pretty similar guys and Utley just happens to have the something factor that attracted some talking heads and the following has rolled from there. You can’t look at actual stats and say Utley was a Hall of Famer and Kinsler wasn’t without holding in a chuckle. Where did Utley blow away Kinsler? A few more “wins above hypothetical mythical characters”? They’ll say Pedroia didn’t have enough longevity. Maybe not but bating .300 with 1800 hits, 4 gold gloves, ROY, MVP and multiple championships in less time than with guy, he already looks better than the other 2 in reality. Just a really sad system.
Agreed 100 %
3.74 career ERA doesn’t scream hall of fame to me. At least, not first ballot.
You have to look at CC for what he did do. Besides Verlander, Scherzer, Greinke and Kershaw, we probably are not going to see another really obvious Hall of Fame starting pitcher anytime soon. Maybe some Old-Timers will get in through the committees but beyond that, with guys only pitching four innings now if they are lucky, who’s going to rack up those kind of stats? The last four guys to retire with 100 complete games are probably Clemens, Maddux, Johnson and Eckersley. Nowadays, if a guy pictures to complete games in a season he is probably damn well going to be the league leader that year. Which also means, after the guys I mentioned, you’re not going to see somebody strike out 3,000 batters anytime soon either. 3.74 would be, by far, the highest of anyone in the 3000 Club, and a good deal higher than the average Hall of Fame pitcher as well but, his last several seasons after age 32 are responsible for the climb. So in essence, he’s kind of the jumping off point or segue between the old workhorse and the modern, babied starter. Which makes him relatively historical in and of itself. Until recently, nobody strikes out 3000 guys and doesn’t get in. Clemens and Schilling are exceptions who obviously belong in the hall and have so far been screwed. So while I think the era is a little high, I also think a 19-year career and 3,000 strikeouts is pretty worth memorializing.
I think he will make the hall of fame, but it shouldn’t be first ballot. Yeah, I get, and I know the whole pitcher Like I said before Mike Mussina was better than CC and it took him about 5 to 6 years to make it in. I think that the fact that he was a Yankee pitcher and there are too many voters who represent New York here will support CC. In fact, Sabathia matches Andy Pettitte on almost every category. Andy Pettitte was a 5-time world champion, and even though he never won a Cy Young his playoff performance as a pitcher was far better than CC’s. If I compare CC with Felix, The King for me was better. The difference between those two? CC pitched many years for the Yankees, while Felix pitched for Seattle. That’s why CC got most of his wins. Just compare the ERA and their peak years and you’ll see what I’m talking about. But yeah, he will make the hall of fame, just don’t think he’s worth first ballot.
I think Sabathia should go. 3000 Ks is pretty awesome and I don’t think it matters where he got his wins. Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine got most of their wins in Atlanta but you don’t get wins because you suck. Some maybe but not 200+.
And I don’t get the 1st ballot, 2bd ballot, 10th ballot thing. If a guy is a Hall of Famer he’s a Hall of Famer. His career is over so it’s not like he does anything different between 5 and 15 years after retirement.
Compare the ERA of CC with Maddux ERA or Glavine. CC Sabathia could pitch 6 inmings and could allow 4 earned runs, but the Yankees score 5 or even 6 runs. They will win due to the great hitting tesm they were. Can we say the same thing about Felix Hernandez? His ERA was better than the ome from Sabathia, he couldnt win that many games because his team was not a good hitting team. Get my point now?
Well I got your point all along. All I’m saying is we can’t hold wins against guys because of who they played for. How many wins do you want the discount Mussina, Clemens, Wells, Pettitte and any other pinstriper because they played for loaded Yankees teams? Sabathia actually had pretty good eras until age 32 or 33 and then he started giving up four or five runs a game and if you look at Hernandez, he only had three full seasons with a sub 3.00 ERA. He was also done by 33 years old so we’ll never know what he would have done in those same years after that age that Sabathia was actually pitching. Hernandez took the covid year off after signing with Atlanta so he never even played there and then he caught on with Baltimore the next year and had about an 8.00 ERA through spring training and couldn’t even make the club. So most likely, he would have sucked for the rest of his thirties since he couldn’t even get past 33. So they were pretty even type guys through the age 33 seasons but Sabathia was able to stick around another several years, pile up some winds and at least get to 3,000 strikeouts. If Hernandez was able to make it to 3,000 strikeouts we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation and they’d be neck and neck for the Hall no matter how many games Hernandez didn’t win.
Felix had 5 seasons of an ERA of 3.06 or better including two era titles of 2.14 and 2.27. Sabathia never did that good on the ERA category not like Felix. Of course, he will make the hall of fame mostly due to the 3,000 ks. I feel Felix should have won at least two cy young awards. I think we both had our points and it was a good analysis. See? At least we are analyzing and debating friendly and peacefully, that’s what voters should do, this type of analysis.
Too many false martyrs and followers. Obviously there are still some writers who discern between what’s important and what’s not but way too many jumping on the phony morals bandwagons and relying on half-tales like wars and jaws.
Agreed.
I think that there needs to be a fan committee. Players who are obviously HOF caliber need more opportunities and the fan voice needs to be heard! My first HOF ballot would be this class! Without these men along with prob 100 more the HOF just don’t make sense, AKA Harold Baines!!
Dale Murphy
Don Mattingly
Roger Maris
Curt Schillings
Pete Rose
Maury Wills
Lou Whittaker
Curt Flood
Ken Boyer
Darrell Evans
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Manny Rameriez
Mark McGwire
Dave Parker
Steve Garvey
Right on Nick. Never been a hypothetical metrics guy and I’m never going to be. These are a great representation of guys who built the game or continued to make it the greatest game in the world. I would add Luis Tiant and Dwight Evans and then I think it would be a really good start for correcting what ails the Hall.
And Jeff Kent
Agreed! After all we watch the games, we go to the parks, we buy their jerseys and buy baseball cards too. You’re right!
Actually thought of a few more
Allie McReynolds
Johnny Sain
Alvin Dark
Don Larson
Harvey Kuenn
Carmelo Pascual
Elston Howard
Curt Flood
Cletus Boyer
Bill White
Manny Mota
Mickey Lolich
Wilbur Wood
Dennis McLain
Craig Nettles
Sparky Lyle
Andy Messersmith
Bobby Bonds
Vida Blue
Dave Concepcion
George Foster
Greg Luzinski
Jose Cruz
Bob Boone
Ken Griffey Sr
Bill Madlock
Keith Hernandez
Fred Lynn
Ron Guidry
Willie Randolph
Dennis Martinez
Jack Clark
Lance Parrish
Pedro Guerrero
Willie Wilson
Rick Sutcliffe
Kirk Gibson
Jeff Reardon
Mike Scott
Fernando V
Dave Stewart
Brett Saberhagan
John Franco
Vince Coleman
Joe Carter
Andres Galarraga
Will Clark
Dave Cone
Mark Grace
Jim Abbott
Marquis Grissom
Omar Vizquel
John Orleud
Gary Sheffield
Kenny Loftin
Andy Pettitte
Is Allie McReynolds the love child of Allie Reynolds and Kevin McReynolds?
Thanks for proving the point of why fans are not allowed to vote… now where’s my other sock?
I don’t think his idea is bad Curt. There are definitely some guys that should be in and some knowledgeable fans that know it but, you’re right they can’t just have the entire fan base going crazy or everybody’s favorite players would be in the Hall.
I’ve always thought that Bill Madlock should’ve been in the Hall of fame. What a great hitter he was!
Kenny Lofton should.be in the hall of fame. I mean if Tim Raines is in then Lofton should be in too.
I would go El Tiante, Cobra, John for sure. I know people have a big war problem with Garvey but he was a star for a long time in his day and so was Allen. There was a time when I wouldn’t think Boyer but with things being the way they are today, a guy with a pretty good all-around game like that probably deserves to be there. Not all that dissimilar to Scott Rolen so I wouldn’t have a problem seeing any of these guys in there.
Carlos Delgado should be very high on your list. 27 more home runs and this guy would have been a lock. Better fielding percentage than about 8 or 10 Hall of Fame first baseman, 280 average, 483 doubles and probably would have made a lot more all-star teams if he spent his career as a Met or even a Yankee or Red Sox.
Yeah I can definitely think of a lot of fans who should not vote for Hall of famers. But I do agree with some of these guys. And Delgado is definitely a high one. For all the times we hear about how many all-star teams a guy made, Delgado missing all-star teams was not an indictment on his talent and production. That guy was awesome for about 13 straight seasons and just happened to be hiding in canada, playing possibly the most loaded position of his era. Kind of tough to make all-star teams playing the same spot as Frank Thomas, Mo Vaughn (before he malfunctioned), Jim Thome, Mark McGwire, Albert Pujols, and then in his later national League seasons there were Ryan Howard and Derek Lee who just happened to be in the midst of their 20-minute primes at that time.
Fans cannot be solely responsible for voting or you would have people like the guy on this thread who vote in anyone who was ever a Yankee just because he is a Yankee fan. Many if not most teams already have their own Hall of Fame and that’s where your favorite players from that team belong. But I do agree the system is highly flawed. The idea originally that writers could be unbiased and keep it fair has been unfortunately tainted by the idea that many writers have now transformed that responsibility into a sense of omniscience and believe they know more than the rest of us. You need a system where there are specific guidelines. Inarguable. Like the automatics would be 500 homers, 3,000 Ks and so on. And then the second tier guys that come close and need to be examined a little bit would be voted on. But not by the writers alone. Maybe you’d have a committee of 10 highly vetted writers who are not witch hunters and who’s credentials as knowledgeable baseball people are the least questioned in the business, 10 living Hall of Famers and 10 managers/executives. That committee’s output would equal 50% of the vote. Then maybe another 25% would be fan-based and the last 25% would be veteran, active players with at least 10 years of service. Something of this nature would have far more voices involved from different standpoints, allow the fans some say on who they want to see in there but also maintain enough equilibrium that you wouldn’t have outlandish, fan-elected outcomes based on just who played for my favorite team.
You have some pretty fun guys on these lists. Not sure every one of them is a Hall of Famer but definitely a great who’s who of a couple of generations of upper tier Major Leaguers. I think the Hall was originally designed to be the absolute best of the best, baseball’s oversized Mount Rushmore. It has since then become pretty watered down and that brings a lot of those guys into the conversation. But even in a time where we don’t have Lou Gehrigs, Hank Aarons, Walter Johnsons, Tris Speakers, Cy Youngs, Ted Williams or Honus Wagners, you still need to look for the guys who truly mattered in their eras. Dwight Evans, Carlos Delgado, Dave Parker, Lou Whitaker, Jeff Kent and several guys from the first list here who have been blackballed because of the PED nonsense, the Pete Rose fiasco and Curt Schilling having the audacity to think he’s allowed to have his own opinion here in communist America are the guys who should be in there due simply to performance on the field. But you can’t replicate the value of seeing the game played and several guys mentioned here certainly looked like they could have been Hall of Fame material at one time or another.
Today the new version of the Veteran’s committee will announce the new inductees… curious to hear your thoughts as to who they will be… My choices are Tommy John, Luis Tiant and Ken Boyer
Think there is a strong case for six gentlemen. Hope third time a charm for Allen. Pulling for Parker and John so they can celebrate with their families while still alive. It’s sad Allen and Tiant cannot …also what happened to Santo and Minoso getting elected right after passing is terrible IMO.
Agreed. They are all good choices…
Happy for Allen and Parker, both deserving… Very disappointed that Tommy John was not chosen he ALSO is very deserving….
Yes, good for those guys. I too would have liked to see John go in as well as Tiant but I guess it is what it is.
All of the guys of the ballot are deserving.
I would have been happy to see Tiant, Allen, Parker, Boyer, Garvey and John go in. Looking up information on Donaldson and Harris, not really sure why they are even on this ballot. I understand they played a lot less games in those leagues but Donaldson appears to have had a couple of solid seasons and otherwise never had more than 31 hits. And that was only once every other season he played had less. Harris seems to have shown no power, no speed and not much of anything else and who on the voting committee was possibly around to see this guy play live to make any major judgment on his defense one way or another? Again, aware they played less games than the regular major leagues but there were some guys in those leagues that really stood out like Charleston and Gibson and the baseball reference stats don’t really show that for these two guys. Maybe I’m missing something but I can’t really fault the voting committee on those two.
Harris was being considered as a manager. He has the highest winning percentage of any manager in Major League history, at .663, with at least 500 wins. As for Donaldson, he did not play for very long in the Major Leagues but achieved 428 wins and 5,295 strikeouts in a barnstorming career. I recommend this website (https://johndonaldson.bravehost.com/) as it can give more justice to Donaldson’s career than I ever could.
Interesting information. Obviously we’ve seen a tremendous movement toward integration retroactively in baseball in recent years. While many historical aspects of this country are unfortunate, and a guy like Donaldson’s statistical output appears impressive in retrospect, it is probably accurate to assume the voters for this ballot struggle to reconcile barnstorming statistics with Major League standards. While some of those games may have been played against some professional players, many were played against semi-professional teams and whoever else would give them a game. Since we generally do not put minor league players into the Major League Hall of Fame, presumptively, this would be a difficult case to advocate. The sentiment of this integration is understandable but begs the question, why do we not integrate NPB players into the Hall of Fame? Granted there may be some minor disparities between rules of the game like a slightly smaller baseball ( which actually is probably more difficult to hit), tie games, etc but, many of those players have come here and proven able to play in either league. And NPB has also surely shown a propensity to compete on the international stage.
Agreed. The attempt to integrate is understandable but sites like baseball reference are now listing guys with barely 4000 plate appearances at best as all time leaders. And by definition, barnstorming relates to exhibitions so it’s kind of hard to justify electing people who built careers on barnstorming. As far as NPB, I get the comparison but it is called the National Baseball Hall of Fame so it would stand to reason that it is for this “Nation” argumentatively. Though it doesn’t specify only this nation. But also by that token, it doesn’t say “Major League” anywhere in the title so why aren’t others considered such as prominent minor league lifers?
There is a sad logic to the thinking that if Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds are not in then none of these contenders measure up. The sooner that this issue is cleared up and the ex-post-facto witch hunt is overruled, the better for fans of baseball and the Hall.
Agreed. First of all, other than is obvious physical increases which we could all see, the only indictment on Bonds is Balco documentation. The only indictment on Clemens is hearsay. Neither guy ever failed a test so who made the writer’s gods? You can not like them all you want but to keep playing judge and jury when no one cares who the hell you are in the first place is ridiculously presumptuous of your own importance and extremely self-aggrandizing at best. End it already, this has become just silliness.
Right. Aside from saving face among peers, how many of the writers who actually have votes watched baseball pre Mitchell report? And of all those that did, how many can honestly say they were up in arms over ped use during that time? Many will probably say they were but many are probably liars and really need to get over themselves. This is what happens when society becomes a place where no one has their own opinion, not shaped by what others think of them or the fear of being canceled by people who don’t matter anyway.
I read an article that claimed electing Dick Allen was a mistake because it should have been done sooner. I’d like to see the same mistake made for Luis Tiant, Cecil Travis, Barney McCoskey, Vern Stephens, Tommy Henrich, Sherry Magee, John Beckwith, Frank Howard and Rocky Colavito.
You guys keep lowering the bar I keep hitting my head on it.
These are guys who had great runs but not great careers. Howard, Colavito, Stephens and Sievers were important parts of some teams for relatively decent stretches but when they fell off a cliff they really fell. All very similar guys in terms of homers, hits, RBIs and overall on base ability but baseball history is literally littered with guys who fall into this category. Some of those other guys barely racked up a few thousand plate appearances and their numbers accordingly pale in comparison to even some of their peers in their own generations never mind all time. You could put all those guys in there but then you would wind up with the Hall of Every Tom, Dick and Harry not named Mario Mendoza, Bob Uecker and Mickey Morandini because there are a lot of other guys very similar to them that would then have a case. I do think Tiant should go but there are several far more deserving guys who still aren’t in there and produced more impressive careers than a lot of these guys. It’s kind of unfortunate in the respect that some of these guys could certainly stand to be remembered my future fans. Obviously you go to the hall and see the greatest of all time and then some guys that maybe aren’t quite the greatest of all time but I guess it really has to end somewhere. There are only so many Ted Williams, Willie Mays and Randy Johnsons so it would be a pretty small place if you only went there to see the actual elite which, necessitates consideration of the next level or two down. Going down another level or two from that would require doubling the size of the building because those tears are very highly represented throughout baseball history.
Dustin Pedroia and Ian Kinsler are not hall of famers I get it, but neither is Utley. Come on!
Neither is Jones for that matter and he’s getting votes. And please spare me the “greatest center fielder of all time based on magical “metrics” that can only be applied to certain eras and somehow pertain to fielding prowess while ignoring fielding percentage, errors, assists etc. He hit 400+ home runs and was otherwise nothing that amazing on offense. So he was a better than average, athletically gifted fielder. So were a lot of guys.
We can make a case for Andruw Jones as one of the best, if not the best center fielder of all time. He won 10 gold gloves if I’m not wrong, what a center fielder he was! He could go in a la Ozzie Smith style
Shouldn’t have to make a case. Should be a lot more obvious. I don’t necessarily believe Smith was a lock either. Gold gloves are a prestigious award but your job is to make plays at your position. If you can’t then you are Masataka Yoshida or any number of guys who’s only value was on offense, hence the DH. Yes she was graceful, athletic, instinctive and made an awful lot of great place but, when I grew up, I was still at the center fielders job as to back up the left fielder and the right fielder and the two middle infielders. That’s your job. You have a glove, go catch the ball. But please do us a favor, when you’re at the fleet, please don’t hit .254 with less than 400 doubles and not even 2,000 hits if we’re going to pay you to be a top tier producer. Jim Edmonds and Torii Hunter we’re also great center fielders with 8 and 9 Gold gloves respectively. They may have had less homers (not that many less) but all their other offensive numbers are much better than Jones. But somehow they are ignored and they’re gold gloves are not as important as Jones when making their cases. That’s crap. Carlos Beltran was a great center fielder and also blows away Jones offensively but he’s struggling for votes because he banged on a trash can. Let’s see, stealing signs, which has been done for decades and no one cared, or whacking your wife around… Hmmm .. and of course his supporters will say he made a mistake or it was not on the field. It’s still a black eye for the game and one of the standards for voting is character. Okay, he made a mistake and maybe him and his wife are over it and maybe he deserves to move forward, Beltran, Schilling, Rose and everyone else who made a “mistake” don’t deserve to put it in the past and move forward? Why? Because of 10 gold gloves? Who cares?
I agree with you, but that’s basically the same reason why Ozzie Smith is in the hall, because of his glove.
Right, but thatthe same issue with Chase Utley, a guy has a .275 lifetime average and not even 1,900 career hits.
People want something to believe in and far be it from me to crush that. But for everyone who likes to believe in these so called modern statistics, there should also be an ability to apply such statistics in an overall analysis before making nonsensical judgments. Andruw Jones is an anomaly in that, his first few years of flashy and spectacular fielding set a tone for those who watched him and no one ever bothered to really think about what went on through his entire career. He was anointed a great center fielder and the legend only grew. Now, in light of the fact that, beyond 400 plus home runs, he has no offensive case for the Hall of Fame whatsoever, this ridiculous idea of Jones being the god of center fielders is all that’s left to make the argument. Forget about the fact that he pulled his wife down the stairs, choked her and told her he wanted to kill her, especially since many of the BBWAA seem to have already forgotten it. If you break down the career of Andruw Jones, all of his amazing defense happened in his first 11 seasons. He might as well have been sleeping on a park bench under some newspapers after he left Atlanta.
During Jones first handful of seasons, he showed an amazing propensity to cover a lot of ground, make spectacular diving catches and quickly turn and go back on balls that would have seemed impossible given how shallow he played in the field. Jones then started to put on weight and didn’t move anywhere nearly as quickly as he did in those first handful of seasons. He made an awful lot of outs on shallow drop in hits because he was standing about 10 ft off of second base. Many of those balls would have normally fallen in for a hit or should have been played by the second baseman or the shortstop. The reason for this? How about that the Braves pitching staffs in front of him spent several years as the best, can of corn producing staff in all of baseball? Don’t think so? Look at the positive defensive numbers for his outfield teammates during those seasons. Yes he had a strong arm and therefore was able to accumulate a good number of assists because he was almost standing in the damn infield! And maybe you could make an argument that the fly ball rate was not necessarily a gimme but they also had the league’s lowest home run rate allowed for years. Jim Edmonds, Torii Hunter and others were already great center fielders so imagine how much better their numbers would have appeared with a pitching staff basically forcing pop-ups all day long, allowing you to stand so shallow in center field that you can basically make a bunch of simple catches and gun people down from 20 ft away. Argue it all you want but that’s the reality of Andruw Jones defensive “metrics”. Don’t get me wrong, he was a superb fielder but he was definitely not the greatest fielder of all time. And if you add all of this together, it’s certainly not enough to make up for all the missing offensive numbers outside of his home run total. And certainly doesn’t add up to Hall of Famer.There are modern defensive numbers that would suggest Andrew Jones is basically twice the center field or Willie Mays was. No shot in hell. That’s just simply ridiculous. His voting trends suggest he will eventually get in but they also suggest a severe lack of knowledge among the BBWAA. His defensive war number alone looks so ridiculously out of place among his peers, anyone with half the ability to do an eye test should be able to resolve that this is a ridiculous anomaly. Yes he was a great fielder, no he was not so much better than anyone who’s ever played the game that almost half of his war value came from his defense. A pretty solid chunk of that is owed to his pitching staff. Otherwise, how was he suddenly not that amazing anymore and never won another Gold Glove as soon as he left Atlanta? He forgot how to play defense? Or he no longer had that same pitching staff? One seems a little more realistic than the other.
Right, and the same is going on with Chase Utley, clearly not a hall of famer. Less than 1,900 career hits and a .275 career hitter. That doesn’t scream hall of fame to me.
How is Billy Wagner’s % dropping?